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View Full Version : Gifts to Chan keep American men out of GPF



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luCN
12-07-2010, 05:26 AM
oh,I watch Mroz‘s programs on COC,and found they were really boring,most people shocked when they heard he got the silver-they loved Verner's much better...I don't blame his skating skills,they are pretty good.I just think he should get a better choreograph or try to impress the judges and audience better...

pinky166
12-07-2010, 05:51 AM
I don't think Abbott would have won the Olympics even if he repeated his Nationals performances. I think he would have been fighting for 3rd place. The judges were giving the gold to Evan or Plushenko if they skated clean and they both did. Abbott would have been robbed and finished with bronze if he was lucky.

I agree. Abbott's PCS were astronomical at nationals and never have been internationally. Had he been clean he would have been fighting against Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan, and Oda to get on the podium.

judgejudy27
12-07-2010, 05:53 AM
Chan's blatant overmarking was of course a disgrace to the sport, and one we can expect to continue to the 2014 Olypmics but it is not what kept any of the American men out of the GP final. Even Rippon probably wouldnt have made it with his poor Skate America performance. And I agree Abbott probably deserved to be below Chan in Russia.

judgejudy27
12-07-2010, 05:56 AM
I don't think Abbott would have won the Olympics even if he repeated his Nationals performances. I think he would have been fighting for 3rd place. The judges were giving the gold to Evan or Plushenko if they skated clean and they both did. Abbott would have been robbed and finished with bronze if he was lucky.

I agree. I actually think more likely he would have come around 5th place just ahead of Chan with his Nationals performances. Possibly with a 3rd place in the LP but not enough points to overcome his probable low SP score (even going clean). Abbott is not held in that high a regard internationally. He won the GPF the year he did since he had no competition with who was there and how everyone skated.

Triple Butz
12-07-2010, 06:14 AM
I agree. I actually think more likely he would have come around 5th place just ahead of Chan with his Nationals performances. Possibly with a 3rd place in the LP but not enough points to overcome his probable low SP score (even going clean). Abbott is not held in that high a regard internationally. He won the GPF the year he did since he had no competition with who was there and how everyone skated.

I think he would have been held back in the sp, probably would have bumped Johnny from the top group and been in 6th. If he skated the lp like nationals and added the second 3a, I think the olympic judges would have placed him first. The feeling at the time was that it would come down to quads versus transitions, and Abbott would have had both, giving the judges no excuse to hold him down.

Re: the actual thread topic, this article is ridiculous. Chan's scores are indeed a joke, but in no way did they prevent the Americans from entering the final.

judgejudy27
12-07-2010, 06:20 AM
I think he would have been held back in the sp, probably would have bumped Johnny from the top group and been in 6th. If he skated the lp like nationals and added the second 3a, I think the olympic judges would have placed him first. The feeling at the time was that it would come down to quads versus transitions, and Abbott would have had both, giving the judges no excuse to hold him down.

Do you think he would have been 1st overall though? Lets say he was 6th in the short with only 83.5 points or so. Then to win he would have needed something around 175 points. And I dont think even if he won the LP he was ever getting that.

Triple Butz
12-07-2010, 06:50 AM
Do you think he would have been 1st overall though? Lets say he was 6th in the short with only 83.5 points or so. Then to win he would have needed something around 175 points. And I dont think even if he won the LP he was ever getting that.

That's a good question. I think it really would depend on how behind he was after the short. However, the judges have been known to spontaneously boost a skater's pcs after a great skate in a big event. If Abbott skated lights out, I wouldn't be surprised to see many of the judges apply that boost just to ensure a victory. Just look at the ladies competition where so many skaters received personal best scores. The other possibility is that the judges may have spent their PCS boost on Abbott instead of Lysacek, making Plushenko the overall winner.

Speaking of the men's sp in Vancouver, does anyone else think Takahashi should have won the short with a huge lead in PCS?

Boy did I get off topic...

ciocio
12-07-2010, 07:51 AM
Speaking of the men's sp in Vancouver, does anyone else think Takahashi should have won the short with a huge lead in PCS?


Yeah, me!:fan:

aftershocks
12-07-2010, 09:10 AM
Yes of course, and I've said it many times post 2010 Olympics, in a perfect world, Dai Takahashi would have/ should have been in first after the sp, PCS or no PCS, CoP or no CoP.

As for understanding CoP -- I might try to understand more if I felt it was a system put in place to actually improve the way skaters are judged. As it is, I trust my own eyes and years of watching the sport more. I'm long since beyond caring that much about where the judges say the skaters should be ranked. I understand enough to know that it's not CoP and not the rules that will ever save this sport. The only reason the sport is still creaking along is because of all the hardworking young people, fresh blood, kids with dreams and stars in their eyes. As a matter of fact, the way this sport is run often reminds me of how some species of animal life on earth actually eat their young.

The most interesting thing about CoP is visiting skating boards after an event and reading all the in-the-know, in-love-with-numbers posters having a field day about protocols and GOEs and such. :lol: That's actually how I've learned some of what I know about CoP. Hey, and who was it who said, "Rules are made to be broken." Enough with rules ... CoP rules change so often, only the smitten CoP ubers, coaches and judges can be expected to keep up with it all. None of these rules, protocols, or numbers-obsessed fans can affect my ability to view and enjoy, or be bored, or transported (less and less these days) by skaters' performances.

:HA!: :biggrinbo :argue: :watch:


Figure skating has been, and will always be debated ... Dick Button

Artifice
12-07-2010, 10:06 AM
I don't know if Chan took the place of other skaters at the GPF, but what I believe is that his high marks received despite all his falls bring some issues and questions regarding how COP reward components marks and the overall artistic aspect.

What I have noticed is that usually skaters who fall or have some mistakes in their elements executions get the components marks lowered as a consequence of the shaky aspect of their technical execution. It's not in the rules book but bad execution and mistakes affect the components mark somehow.
But in Chan's case it seems that absolutely no consideration of his technical mistakes are taken into account to affect his components marks.

So to me the problem may not be that Chan actually is not penalised more for his falls, it's that he is not penalized while others are penalized. And this is not fair.

allezfred
12-07-2010, 10:20 AM
Maybe the author of this piece should watch some Canadian skating on TV and be informed as to how COP works instead of whining about the American boys getting left out of the GP final.


This is almost as barf-inducing as the actual blog entry itself. :P

professordeb
12-07-2010, 02:53 PM
This is almost as barf-inducing as the actual blog entry itself. :P

Well I'll see your :P and raise you a :D and a :lol: Mr. Superior European!

Really, the amount of whining that goes on around here can become comical and seeing the spillage out in the "real world" about Chan makes me :wideeyes:. I guess the writer of the article had to find some excuse as to why their beloved American skaters were ripped off of not being in the GPF final. As far as I'm concerned, the writer can cry me a flipping river of tears and then get over themself.

wonderlen
12-07-2010, 03:15 PM
Well to be fair, Abbott national long program way under score, it was one of the best he ever skated, or any body skated that season. If he was marked more according, it should score close to 170 range, and the program definitely deserved way higher PCS than Evan's program.
Chan national free skate was a mess, and yet he score mid 160+ with a fall and sloppy landings?? :rolleyes:

But the blog was silly. Even if Chan say get lower mark, say about 10 points lower , he will get silver at SC and still qualify for GPF.

pinky166
12-07-2010, 03:53 PM
I agree. I actually think more likely he would have come around 5th place just ahead of Chan with his Nationals performances. Possibly with a 3rd place in the LP but not enough points to overcome his probable low SP score (even going clean). Abbott is not held in that high a regard internationally. He won the GPF the year he did since he had no competition with who was there and how everyone skated.

This is true. Lysacek was reigning WC so he had been getting huge PCS since then and was one of the favorites to medal at the Olympics. Even if Jeremy was clean at the Olympics I don't really see him placing ahead of Takahashi, Chan, or Lambiel - although I guess Chan and Lambiel didn't skate that well, so maybe, maybe he could have beaten one/both of them and ended up in 4th or 5th place. Likely though he would have been given the Johnny Weir other american treatment and finished in (bumped Johnny out of) 6th - behind Lysacek, Plushenko, Takahashi, Lambiel, and Chan. I'm not saying that that would be the placement he deserved, but realistically that's the placement he would have been given. Had Oda and Joubert skated clean he probably would have been behind those two as well, just because of stupid reputation nonsense.

Jenny
12-07-2010, 03:57 PM
This blog post is less about Chan and other skaters than it is about the writer's longstanding refusal to accept (understand?) CoP, and their futile attempt to rally support for going back to the dark ages of judging.