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Dragonlady
12-12-2010, 06:34 PM
I'm all for comebacks, but Adam deserved a LOT bigger lead after the short, and both Adam and Nobunari skated well enough in both phases of the competition to overcome Patrick IMO. Its not like Patrick was perfect in the long program himself.

So your whole stance in this thread is all about "Adam wuz robbed?"

Go over the score sheet and show me where you think, exactly, Adam was underscored or Patrick was overscored, because three judging panels in three different countries have all said essentially the same thing: Patrick Chan is worthy of the highest PCS scores in the world.

Note that with an under-rotated and imperfectly landed quad at the GPF, Patrick scored more than 12 points more than he did with 3 falls at Skate Canada and he was in second place after the SP.

Adam Rippon, in a slightly less gorgeous version of his SP at Skate America, scored 4 points less than he did at Skate Canada and there was less than 1 point difference in his PCS between the two events.

So, using the rules, and the current scoring system, kindly show us how Adam wuz robbed, because this argument of yours just won't fly, based on the rules and scoring.

reese
12-12-2010, 06:44 PM
It's too bad PCS can't address the absolute vapidity of his skating. His skating skills are impeccable, yes, and it's easy to appreciate the difficulty of his programs, but his skating has no soul.

Dragonlady
12-12-2010, 09:15 PM
The IJS is basically a computer and numbers driven system, and therefore, soulless.

Chan's victory at Skate Canada should demonstrate one thing in spades: A top level skater who lands a quad, is pretty much unbeatable, regardless of what else he does. In each of his events, Patrick Chan has landed one beautiful, highly-scored quad.

All the people who wanted the quad to really matter in Men's skating, have exactly what they wanted. The guy who lands the quad wins. And in the event of it being a guy with 80 points of PCS, the kind of skater people complained about beating guys with quads before the rule change, he's gonna win regardless of whatever else he does.

Rock2
12-12-2010, 09:33 PM
It's too bad PCS can't address the absolute vapidity of his skating. His skating skills are impeccable, yes, and it's easy to appreciate the difficulty of his programs, but his skating has no soul.

I can see why people feel that way. He isn't the charismatic performer that others are. Judges I think have to be careful to take more of an intellectual approach to evaluating performance as, oddly, getting a rise out of the audience isn't and shouldn't be the main criteria. That's the objective of show skating and I think the ISU is trying to do its best not to blur the lines with competitive skating.

Because 'personality' isn't the main driving factor in the PE mark Patrick doesn't have to be profoundly charismatic to get the top mark. He does have to engage his whole body and face in crisp and nuanced expression and involvement in the music. He does that really well although that engages the intellect of the judges more than the emotions of the audience. It's kind of weird to get used to the fact that even PCS is largely technical. Our desire for strong 'show skating' constantly kicks in so it's hard for us to buy it.

Overall, Patrick's PCS rule because his program is so much more full of non-element content. Way more. And, it's not done with just his feet, it's delivered with his entire body and with as much authenticity as you can deliver with the hundreds of instructions his body has follow within the program. Only the judges and tech panel really see this. It's harder for us.

Many other skaters can entertain an audience. Almost (almost) no other skater could do his entire program as designed and with better element consistency. This is why the judges are calling him at or near the best right now, irrespective of to what degree anyone enjoys what he does.

care bear
12-13-2010, 01:36 PM
Adam Rippon was given only a 3 point advantage based on both men's shorts. I'm sorry that was RIDICULOUS. A clean Rippon short program, is a lot more than 3 points better than a 3 fall short program from Patrick.

I'm all for comebacks, but Adam deserved a LOT bigger lead after the short, and both Adam and Nobunari skated well enough in both phases of the competition to overcome Patrick IMO. Its not like Patrick was perfect in the long program himself.

100% agree. :cool:

Dragonlady
12-13-2010, 03:02 PM
100% agree. :cool:

So what? Now go back and tell us how, according to the rules, you would score both Adam and Patrick more fairly. Show exactly where and why you'd add those extra marks to Adam's score and take them off Patrick's score, all according to the rules.

Because just saying you think that Adam was underscored is meaningless. It's just whining that your favourite didn't win.

ciocio
12-13-2010, 03:22 PM
You donīt like Chan? Use the remote control or go and drink a coffee while heīs skating. If the seats are empty when Chan is skating, the judges will think twice before they award him the gold medal, believe me.

care bear
12-13-2010, 03:42 PM
I agree with the opinion of bek and his argumments. I think I have said it clearly. Or should I write the same what he has written, once again?

let`s talk
12-13-2010, 03:45 PM
I can see why people feel that way. He isn't the charismatic performer that others are. Judges I think have to be careful to take more of an intellectual approach to evaluating performance as, oddly, getting a rise out of the audience isn't and shouldn't be the main criteria.
:rolleyes:
Well, judges have an intellectual approach and the audience is just....

Dragonlady
12-13-2010, 03:54 PM
I agree with the opinion of bek and his argumments. I think I have said it clearly. Or should I write the same what he has written, once again?

bek hasn't posted any reasons for thinking this way, or any analysis of how the scoring should be changed, although it would be interesting to see someone, post some sort of reasonable argument based on the rules, as to just how and why the scoring should be changed.

Posting that a skater "wuz robbed" within the context of a the detailed discussion of scoring, is about as pointless as saying I wish it was warmer today.

Adam was fairly scored according to the rules. Chan was fairly scored according to the rules. If you believe otherwise, fine, but within the context of this discussion, it's not unreasonable for us to want specifics.

professordeb
12-13-2010, 05:00 PM
You donīt like Chan? Use the remote control or go and drink a coffee while heīs skating. If the seats are empty when Chan is skating, the judges will think twice before they award him the gold medal, believe me.

Do you really believe the judges will be swayed by how many or few people are in the seats watching Chan versus watching anyone else? If I understand correctly, it's about presenting the judges with what they can see and then they give you a mark - not about how many bodies are seated in the arena. I seem to recall a certain blond-haired "pup" who skated very judge-concentric programs and when some of us wondered WHY, his fans informed us that he was skating for the judges, not for the audience. Hmmm ... very interesting.

clarie
12-13-2010, 06:24 PM
Well, I have learned through experience, charisma is in the eye of the beholder. Patrick has it for me and many others as well.

pinky166
12-13-2010, 08:31 PM
100% agree. :cool:

I'm with you on this one but even if Adam placed 2nd at SC (behind Oda, ahead of Chan) he still wouldn't have made the GPF because of his 4th place at SA, which he actually did deserve because of his poor FS. Patrick, on the other hand, would have placed 3rd and 2nd in his events and would have qualified, as we can assume his scores would have beaten those of Amodio and Abbott. So the results of SC and the blatant holding up of Chan there, while frusterating, really would not have changed the outcome.

museksk8r
12-13-2010, 08:48 PM
Patrick, on the other hand, would have placed 3rd and 2nd in his events and would have qualified, as we can assume his scores would have beaten those of Amodio and Abbott. So the results of SC and the blatant holding up of Chan there, while frusterating, really would not have changed the outcome.

BUTT you really don't know that. Going into his 2nd Grand Prix as the Skate Canada bronze medalist would have put more pressure on Chan to do well in Russia rather than know he could afford mistakes and come in 3rd or 4th and still have a strong chance of making the GPF. Knowing you can fall 4 times and still win has gotta give a skater a huge amount of confidence. Had a message been sent to Chan in Canada that that can't happen, it would have rattled him more and the urgency to skate clean in Russia would have been greater. Instead, he was able to cruise and crash his way to a silver medal knowing that he already had GP Canada gold in his pocket.

ciocio
12-13-2010, 08:55 PM
Do you really believe the judges will be swayed by how many or few people are in the seats watching Chan versus watching anyone else? If I understand correctly, it's about presenting the judges with what they can see and then they give you a mark - not about how many bodies are seated in the arena. I seem to recall a certain blond-haired "pup" who skated very judge-concentric programs and when some of us wondered WHY, his fans informed us that he was skating for the judges, not for the audience. Hmmm ... very interesting.

If a skater wants to win he must follow the rules and skate to judge-concentric programs, can you name someone who wants a medal but doesn't care about the judges? (except Plushenko in 2010, of course)? Personally I don't remember any blond-haired "pup" who was skating for the judges while the audience was sleeping in their seats or enjoying a hot drink in a cafe, please give us some examples.:saint: