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chipso1
02-23-2011, 02:52 AM
tell that to Shizuka Arakawa and Sarah Hughes...:slinkaway

Ditto for Lysacek, who was the U.S. #3 heading into the 2005 Worlds and then skated away with a bronze medal in Moscow.

jlai
02-23-2011, 03:03 AM
Aren't skaters offered 4CC in order of their nationals finish, and then can then decline it? Certain skaters always tended to decline it, whereas certain skaters usually went.

It's normally the case, but this year, I doubt all of Ryan, Miner and DOrnbush declined. I suspect the selection committee picked 4-6 without asking #1-3, but that's imho. I just think if you're developing new team, do it all the way and not half-half (like sending them to world but giving them minimal experience beforehand).


Abbott went to Worlds in the season he won the GPF, and Czisny's going this year, so *shrug*. (And not to belabor the point, but Abbott subsequently placed 11th and was the lowest ranked of US skaters at that event.) And skate-offs at 4CC are leaving it a little late and are basically requiring a do-over of US nationals, because you will have to send your World team to 4CC or else the argument of "you have to put them on the Worlds team, they medalled at 4CC" falls apart if not everyone who was already on the World team had a chance to medal at 4CC, so who are they going to displace, someone who didn't even have a chance? And do we really need to have a do-over of US nationals one to two weeks later? (And by this logic, the GPF champ would be booted off the Worlds team because she was the 3rd placed US skater at 4CC.)

I think we're debating over two questions in this thread: 1) Whether this year's selection is fair (considering USFS tradition, this is fair). I think it's a moot point because the team is picked based on what skaters already know to be the criteria.

2) WHat should be the ideal current selection criteria? HOnestly there is none. As seen from the past, each selection criterion is bounced to flop at some point. Miki got her 06 O spot based on her international showing and she got 16th at Olympics. OTOH, the Japanese based their junior world selection on junior nationals and sent its winner, Mari Suzuki, to JW in 09 and she didn't even qualify for the free skate. So basing selection heavily on one criterion makes the selection inflexible and it's bounced to fail at some point.

But I think allowing some consideration to winners of big internationals does allow some flexibility in selection in close cases when great results (like winning gpf) speak for themselves. I'm not saying someone who places 7th at nationals and medals at 4cc should be sent.

ETA: Just to clarify, I am not arguing over Jeremy's spot. He did himself in, and I'm a big fan.

Mayra
02-23-2011, 04:01 AM
The way the current rule is being enforced is the most clear cut way to pick the World/Olympic team. IMO Any other way leaves too much room for :argue:(not that it is stopping us now) and has the potential for a PR trainwreck. The USFS has been extremely consistent in their selection. Going into Nationals every skater hoping to make the World team knows the score and they know what they have to do to get there. Jeremy just didn't cut it.

The wording of the selection criteria is unfortunate, because it does leave room for interpretation, but it's evident that the USFS chose to do it this way to get the USOC off their back. It also allows them wiggle room for extraordinary cases like Michelle Kwan in 2006. I like Jeremy, but he is no Michelle Kwan.

This is the post-Olympic season and I see no reason why the USFS should hold Jeremy's hand going into Worlds. Particularly as his results thus far have been less than stellar on that stage. JMO

jlai
02-23-2011, 04:44 AM
I do agree Jeremy did himself in. No argument there.

I've been thinking of cases where top national placements do poorly at worlds or jr worlds. Like Mari Suzuki. Perhaps there is an occasional difference between the opinin of one's own national judges and international judges. Could inviting some intl judges to judge US nationals solve this issue?

Sylvia
02-23-2011, 04:49 AM
Could inviting some intl judges to judge US nationals solve this issue?
There are international judges judging at US Nationals every year. Or do you mean international judges from outside the US?

jlai
02-23-2011, 04:50 AM
There are international judges judging at US Nationals every year. Or do you mean international judges from outside the US?

Yes, that's what I mean. Thank yuo.

MacMadame
02-23-2011, 05:09 AM
I'd be interested in knowing if his opinion on this matter changed once E/L's Int'l results improved and they became a top US pair. I'd find it hard to believe that these skaters winning Int'l medals and outscoring all the other US skaters internationally don't wish for it to be taken into consideration.
Well, you've made it very clear you have trouble believing that this is what the athletes want. :lol:

But, I've talked to them. (It was part of my research to decide how to vote on the issue at Governing Council a number of years ago.) And, as hard as it is for you to imagine, they don't agree with you.

Likewise, USFS ... as you point out by your very own logic ... doesn't agree with you that the sole purpose of Worlds is to send the very best team with no other considerations. There are other considerations that factor into it.

stjeaskategym
02-23-2011, 08:00 AM
It's normally the case, but this year, I doubt all of Ryan, Miner and DOrnbush declined. I suspect the selection committee picked 4-6 without asking #1-3, but that's imho. I just think if you're developing new team, do it all the way and not half-half (like sending them to world but giving them minimal experience beforehand).

I assume they assigned #4-6 to Four Continents because this was an extremely rare circumstance where 4-6 were expected to finish more like 1-3. It would have been better for 1-3 to have been sent to 4CC to prepare for Worlds, but I don't think they wanted 4-6 to go home empty-handed, considering the credentials of those skaters (specifically Abbott and Rippon).


This is the post-Olympic season and I see no reason why the USFS should hold Jeremy's hand going into Worlds. Particularly as his results thus far have been less than stellar on that stage. JMO

I agree with this. But it's just kind of funny that people rip apart Abbott for his 11th places at his first trips to Worlds when people will be thrilled for Miner if he does the same thing here. :lol:


Well, you've made it very clear you have trouble believing that this is what the athletes want. :lol:

But, I've talked to them. (It was part of my research to decide how to vote on the issue at Governing Council a number of years ago.) And, as hard as it is for you to imagine, they don't agree with you.

I'm not sure who you've spoken to, but it's hard to believe someone like Alissa Czisny who won a GP, medaled at another, and won the GPF, wouldn't prefer for that to come into consideration in the selection of the World team. Last season, Ashley Wagner publicly stated that she hoped her good results on the GP and her qualifying for the GPF would factor into Olympic selection... I'm sure when Abbott won the GPF and when Lysacek won the GPF that they wanted that to be considered... I'm sure Flatt would have preferred that her medaling in both GPs and making the GPF was considered this season... Bottom line is, I can't imagine ANY skater who has had any sort of success internationally would want that erased from USFS's minds as they select World/Oly teams. These skaters who prove repeatedly that they can compete internationally want to try to peak at Worlds (or at least not burn out before then) and don't want an "off day" at Nationals to ruin their entire season. Everyone's entitled to an off day. This doesn't mean we NEED to factor in GP results, but I see no harm in considering them. I don't see how anyone could consider this "playing favorites".

Now, if you've spoken to many of the middle-of-the-pack skaters who don't have much going on internationally, of course they want Nationals to mean everything since it's their only prayer of getting on a World team.


Likewise, USFS ... as you point out by your very own logic ... doesn't agree with you that the sole purpose of Worlds is to send the very best team with no other considerations. There are other considerations that factor into it.

Yeah. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that one. I doubt there is an ideal mathematical formula that can pick World teams better than Nationals can, but when you have two skaters separated by .19, and one is scoring 20-30 pts higher internationally on a regular basis, isn't it somewhat obvious who should go? To me, it is, but I see that not everyone thinks so.

Squibble
02-23-2011, 08:17 AM
I doubt there is an ideal mathematical formula that can pick World teams better than Nationals can, but when you have two skaters separated by .19, and one is scoring 20-30 pts higher internationally on a regular basis, isn't it somewhat obvious who should go?

Yes. The one one who scored higher than the other at the high-pressure, do-or-die competition. :)

Miner! :kickass:

stjeaskategym
02-23-2011, 08:44 AM
Yes. The one one who scored higher than the other at the high-pressure, do-or-die competition. :)

Miner! :kickass:

High-pressure for Abbott, who was trying to 3-peat. Miner didn't even bring an exhibition costume because he didn't even consider placing top 4. :lol: Sure there was pressure for him, too, but it was just different.

triple_toe
02-23-2011, 09:07 AM
High-pressure for Abbott, who was trying to 3-peat. Miner didn't even bring an exhibition costume because he didn't even consider placing top 4. :lol: Sure there was pressure for him, too, but it was just different.

The fact that a former GPF winner and two time National Champion was so overwhelmed by pressure that he couldn't even make the top 3 at a competition he should have easily won doesn't exactly instill confidence in his ability to deliver when it counts. :blah: Miner won his spot fair and square. Honestly, the 4CC's team didn't exactly blow the competition away and in my view, the performances of Rippon, Mahbanoozadeh, and Abbott confirm that the USFSA sent the right team to Worlds. Competitions are not about who is the best skater competing, but rather who competed the best that day. You can have all the potential in the world, but it doesn't matter if you can't put it together.

reese
02-23-2011, 11:51 AM
The fact that a former GPF winner and two time National Champion was so overwhelmed by pressure that he couldn't even make the top 3 at a competition he should have easily won doesn't exactly instill confidence in his ability to deliver when it counts. :blah: Miner won his spot fair and square. Honestly, the 4CC's team didn't exactly blow the competition away and in my view, the performances of Rippon, Mahbanoozadeh, and Abbott confirm that the USFSA sent the right team to Worlds. Competitions are not about who is the best skater competing, but rather who competed the best that day. You can have all the potential in the world, but it doesn't matter if you can't put it together.

Abbott should have "easily won" Nationals this year? Huh? Over Rippon, Armin, Dornbush and Bradley?

Nothing about the 4CC results confirms that USFS is sending the right team to Worlds. The fact that a totally mistake-filled LP from Abbott could still score about 30 points higher than Miner has EVER scored internationally, plus still beat Kozuka, says the opposite.

I also don't understand this argument that Miner won his spot "fair and square." I guess that's true-- he didn't whack Abbott in the knee or anything-- but the PCS thrown at Miner would never hold up internationally. He was given, on average, PCS that were across the board about 2 points higher than he's scored internationally, while skaters like Abbott and Rippon got PCS that were almost identical to what they scored on the Grand Prix this fall. If there's going to be major Nationals inflation, Rippon should have been getting 9.50s-10s.

carriecmu0503
02-23-2011, 12:30 PM
Ditto for Lysacek, who was the U.S. #3 heading into the 2005 Worlds and then skated away with a bronze medal in Moscow.

Let us not forget that Lysacek was also the 2009 Nationals bronze medalist! He was lucky that only one upstart skater (Mroz) snuck ahead of him; had Weir skated like he normally does, Lysacek would not have made the 2009 World team, and we all know how 2009 Worlds ended for Lysacek.....

Abbott's performance at Nationals this year really was not any worse than Lysaceck's at 2009- he just had the misfortune of having 2 newbiews, instead of one, sneak ahead of him.

danceronice
02-23-2011, 04:57 PM
Abbott has been to Worlds three times and has failed to get anywhere near the podium, finishing out of the top 10 two out of those three times. He is by no means a slam dunk. Lysacek and Weir could be counted on for a decent placement. But Abbott is the least dependable champion the U.S. has had in about as long as I can remember. He is a wonderfully talented skater, but he is not a reliable competitor.

This. If we were talking about Evan or Johnny, there would be a strong argument to bump the bronze medalist for people with a long track record of accomplishment. But so far, they've sent Abbot in as the "top" US man to Wolrds AND Olympics, and they've seen him, by and large, not hold it together when it counts. This time, he didn't even quite get there at Nationals. This is when they need to see who's going to be the 'up and comers', with enough time left to tweak things before they have to think about having those three Olympic spots. They have a reasonable pattern to look at where Abbot is concerned. So they can choose to send the winner of Nationals and two who may be long-term potential that need to get in front of the skating world and show what they have, or bump one of the long-term potentials for someone who's had several shots at it already and hasn't pulled out a medal at Worlds yet and even dropped far lower than they can really afford for a skater who isn't playing the "First Worlds, here for the experience" card.

Also, not to sound all konpsiracy-theory, but isn't Ross still coached by Mark Mitchell? There may, not even overtly but in the back of USFS's minds, be that nagging memory of how it worked out for them when his coach got bumped in favor of a previous national champion.

sk9tingfan
02-23-2011, 05:05 PM
High-pressure for Abbott, who was trying to 3-peat. Miner didn't even bring an exhibition costume because he didn't even consider placing top 4. :lol: Sure there was pressure for him, too, but it was just different.

And now the monkey will be on Ryan's, Ross's and Dornbush's backs to retain at least two if not three spots. Given that Ryan has never performed particularly well at Worlds, and I think may not wind up competing(why bother; just walk away and move onto a professional career since cementing his legacy), Jeremy may wind up going after all.