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MacMadame
02-20-2011, 05:47 AM
I would guess the very top skaters are more pissed off by the way it's done now.

The skaters are always introducing and supporting amendments at Governing Council to pick the teams by Nationals results. I'm sure there are skaters who disagree (there are a lot of skaters and they don't think in lock step), but at all the Governing Councils I've been to, the athlete reps have made it very clear that they want the team picked based on Nationals results and not some vague criteria that isn't knowable ahead of time.

attyfan
02-20-2011, 05:19 PM
... At this point in time, Abbott is the better skater and most likely was the US's only medal chance at Worlds (you could argue that it was an outside chance, but it was still a chance). I don't think selecting Abbott would have come across as political at all... I think it would have just been an obvious way to increase the US's potential at Worlds, which is what I think should be the most important thing. If a country doesn't want their best team at the most important competition of the year, then what's the point?

What about preparing for the future? Sooner or later, the newbies have to make their first trip to an important event; what is wrong by using legitimate criteria (national placements) to start easing the young ones into the big leagues early? It makes sense to me to test out Miner (and Dornbush) now ... when there is time to recover any lost spots before Sochi.


... I would guess the very top skaters are more pissed off by the way it's done now. ...

Why would the top skaters only be pissed off now? Absent injury byes, the US has been using only Nats to select its World (and Oly) teams for years.

Rock2
02-20-2011, 06:27 PM
Based on the rulebook, the only bright spot to look at on Jeremy's recent record is his nats win last year (and a sensational skate at that!). But aside from that, I don't think he accomplished much else in the last season or two that would warrant a near-automatic selection. Had he won a GP event, made the GP final and medalled there or medalled at World's or Olympics last year, I think the decision would have been tougher. Jeremy unfortunately as not come through with results more than he has in recent history, so I can see why the USFSA isn't doing him any favors and is therefore shifting its focus to the future.

Sad, though. His two programs this year are among the best I have ever seen in men's skating.

MacMadame
02-20-2011, 09:25 PM
Why would the top skaters only be pissed off now? Absent injury byes, the US has been using only Nats to select its World (and Oly) teams for years.

But it used to be the rules. The rules had to be modified though because USFS didn't want US Nationals in Olympic years to be the official Olympic Trials. Making them so would give some control to the USOC and IOC and they didn't want that. So they modified the rules to say that the make-up of the team was up to their discretion. Athletes got upset about that and a compromise was reached ... the National Champion was guaranteed a spot but the rest of the team was up to the International Committee.

And I agree that USFS had no reason to leave Miner off the World team. We're not talking about a skater with a proven track record having one uncharacteristic bad skate and being left off the Olympic team thus crushing years of dreams. We're talking about a two-time national champion with a spotty international record being left off the World team in the first year post-Olympics (i.e., a rebuilding year).

Why not send Miner? Only time is going to tell us what skaters are really the "future of US figure skating" and USFS has the time, this being the very first year of the Olympic cycle, so why upset the apple cart by going against Nationals results when nothing is to be gained by it?

Squibble
02-20-2011, 10:01 PM
Why not send Miner?

Why not, indeed?

Sending Miner sends the message that the USFSA does not play favorites. Do well enough at Nationals, and you will be sent to Worlds. Choosing Abbott would open the door to sending a skater who finished a lot more than 0.19 points out of third (or second) place.

bek
02-21-2011, 01:52 AM
Why not, indeed?

Sending Miner sends the message that the USFSA does not play favorites. Do well enough at Nationals, and you will be sent to Worlds. Choosing Abbott would open the door to sending a skater who finished a lot more than 0.19 points out of third (or second) place.

Exactly once the USFSA starts playing favorites, that opens a huge can of worms. That's why if exceptions are going to be made, they need to be made for really exceptional examples. I.e a reigning world champion, or maybe reigning bronze medalist.

stjeaskategym
02-23-2011, 01:28 AM
Well then what's your definition of a good competitor. For me a good competitor is someone who normally delivers according to their abilities or close to it.

The higher a skater's level of ability, the harder it is to deliver that ability. Unless Abbott skates clean with a 4T, 3A-3T, and 3A (which happens rarely for most skaters), there are people not happy with him and consider him to be underachieving. But the way I look at it is that Abbott not at his best would still outscore Miner just about every time right now.


The skaters are always introducing and supporting amendments at Governing Council to pick the teams by Nationals results. I'm sure there are skaters who disagree (there are a lot of skaters and they don't think in lock step), but at all the Governing Councils I've been to, the athlete reps have made it very clear that they want the team picked based on Nationals results and not some vague criteria that isn't knowable ahead of time.

Oh, I can imagine most of the skaters want the World team based on National results...But that's probably because the average skater has very little on their resume BUT Nationals results. I assume plenty of skaters from that very top echelon of US skaters who have decent international results (aka the favorites to make it to Worlds) would prefer that their Int'l performances are at least considered in the selection for Int'l teams. Sadly, the top skaters would never win a vote on this matter because they are in the heavy minority.


What about preparing for the future? Sooner or later, the newbies have to make their first trip to an important event; what is wrong by using legitimate criteria (national placements) to start easing the young ones into the big leagues early? It makes sense to me to test out Miner (and Dornbush) now ... when there is time to recover any lost spots before Sochi.

Worlds is the most important competition of the year. The purpose there, I would think, is for countries to try to get their best results, not to test out new guys. We can test out Miner on the Grand Prix, Senior Bs, and anything else. Miner competed twice on the GP and didn't prove to be on Abbott's level of scoring ability, and he barely (an understatement) squeaked by Abbott at Nationals with the "skate of his life"... I understand the reasoning behind sending Miner (he did beat Abbott at the most important competition), and I think it will be a fantastic experience for him. But to me it's just a sign that the US isn't very concerned about trying to get their best results at Worlds. And that's fine... Not everyone is going to have the same goals. And the US has plenty of skating depth in this country that even if they don't try their hardest to send their best team, they will still get nice enough results.


Based on the rulebook, the only bright spot to look at on Jeremy's recent record is his nats win last year (and a sensational skate at that!). But aside from that, I don't think he accomplished much else in the last season or two that would warrant a near-automatic selection. Had he won a GP event, made the GP final and medalled there or medalled at World's or Olympics last year, I think the decision would have been tougher. Jeremy unfortunately as not come through with results more than he has in recent history, so I can see why the USFSA isn't doing him any favors and is therefore shifting its focus to the future.

Sad, though. His two programs this year are among the best I have ever seen in men's skating.

I agree that Abbott didn't deserve an automatic selection. For him, this hasn't been a great season. I just think his far superior track record internationally (even just looking at this season only) over Miner deserved some serious consideration, especially when these two skaters nearly finished in a tie at Nationals. It's not like we're deciding a University Games roster here... This is Worlds.


Why not send Miner? Only time is going to tell us what skaters are really the "future of US figure skating" and USFS has the time, this being the very first year of the Olympic cycle, so why upset the apple cart by going against Nationals results when nothing is to be gained by it?

We're never all going to agree on this, but I think there's a lot to be gained by trying to send the best team we can. It would have improved the US's chances of doing well, most importantly. On top of that, it would have given us a very real chance of maintaining 3 spots. While some believe it's not a big deal to lose one of these spots and that we can just get it back next year, the odds of getting 3 spots decrease substantially when you are down to 2 skaters (as the US ladies have shown). Both skaters really have to be on their game at the same time to expect them to turn 2 spots into 3... There's VERY little room for error. Also, the more skaters you have entered, the better the chances of getting good placements. For example, the US ladies would be in much better shape if they had Mirai there in addition to Alissa and Rachael this year.

Lanna
02-23-2011, 01:41 AM
Oh, I can imagine most of the skaters want the World team based on National results...But that's probably because the average skater has very little on their resume BUT Nationals results. I assume plenty of skaters from that very top echelon of US skaters who have decent international results (aka the favorites to make it to Worlds) would prefer that their Int'l performances are at least considered in the selection for Int'l teams.

I don't know any details about the situations that MacMadame was describing, but, fwiw, Mark Ladwig is an athlete representative.

(And I think your No True Scotsman clarification defense is a little disingenuous.)

attyfan
02-23-2011, 01:49 AM
...

Worlds is the most important competition of the year. The purpose there, I would think, is for countries to try to get their best results, not to test out new guys. We can test out Miner on the Grand Prix, Senior Bs, and anything else. Miner competed twice on the GP and didn't prove to be on Abbott's level of scoring ability, and he barely (an understatement) squeaked by Abbott at Nationals with the "skate of his life" ...

Sorry, but I disagree with the idea that we could test out Miner on the Grand Prix or Senior Bs. Right now, Miner's competitive results are as consistent with his being a strong minded competitor who knows how to "bring it" to the really important events ... the only way to prove if this is so or not is to send him to the really important events. After all, Mao Asada was horrible during the GP events, and was soundly trounced by Suzuki; later events showed the situation was completely turned around. Whether Miner/Abbott could be similar or not is still not known.

centerpt1
02-23-2011, 01:52 AM
Lets See- in just this season when we all agree Jeremy wasn't at his best-

US mens singles skater with most SR GP points this year- Abbott (missed GPF in a tiebreaker)

US mens singles skater that medaled at ALL his international events -Abbott (despite travel overseas for all)

Nope, can't understand why we'd want to send our best international mens skater to Worlds...

maybe to help keep 3 spots for deserving skaters next year?

stjeaskategym
02-23-2011, 01:54 AM
I don't know any details about the situations that MacMadame was describing, but, fwiw, Mark Ladwig is an athlete representative.

I'd be interested in knowing if his opinion on this matter changed once E/L's Int'l results improved and they became a top US pair. I'd find it hard to believe that these skaters winning Int'l medals and outscoring all the other US skaters internationally don't wish for it to be taken into consideration.

reese
02-23-2011, 01:57 AM
Lots of posters in this thread and elsewhere have been arguing that it's best to send Miner because, Hey! He needs to gain international exposure! But there's a Grand Prix series for that... Ross did nothing special on the GP this year. He's never even broken 200.

Worlds is the biggest event of the year and it's prudent to try to send your best, highest scoring team. I don't think we'll get 3 spots for next year, and that's ok with it being so early in the quadrennium, but it's a bit silly to kid ourselves into thinking that, for example, an Abbott-Rippon-Dornbush team or an Abbott-Rippon-Armin team would fail to get 3 spots. It's possible, certainly, but not likely. Even if it was a really weak event for Adam and Jeremy, I don't see them, with their PCS, finishing out of the top 10. I don't see Ross finishing in the top 10 even with the skate of his life.

But we'll see!

jlai
02-23-2011, 02:26 AM
I understand the need to expose young guns to top events, but if this is the case, I'm not sure if it's a great idea to send US 4th-6th to 4cc at all, esp. when Ryan hasn't competed all season internationally and the second place has not ever competed at a senior international. Both Ryan and Dornbush really could use a tune-up event. WIthout 4cc as a tuneup, this world men's team is probably the most untested team in recent USFS history. I think USFS should have done it all the way and sent top three to 4cc (or US #1, 2 and 4)

I think US skaters know prior to this season US nationals is the main selection criterion, so it's a moot point who goes to worlds. If the US team ends up doing poorly then perhaps then USFS can reconsider modifying its selection criteria to consider other events, eg. considering skaters who win GPF or medal at 4cc, etc. etc.

Lanna
02-23-2011, 02:40 AM
I understand the need to expose young guns to top events, but if this is the case, I'm not sure if it's a great idea to send US 4th-6th to 4cc at all, esp. when Ryan hasn't competed all season internationally and the second place has not ever competed at a senior international. Both Ryan and Dornbush really could use a tune-up event. WIthout 4cc as a tuneup, this world men's team is probably the most untested team in recent USFS history. I think USFS should have done it all the way and sent top three to 4cc (or US #1, 2 and 4)

Aren't skaters offered 4CC in order of their nationals finish, and then can then decline it? Certain skaters always tended to decline it, whereas certain skaters usually went.


I think US skaters know prior to this season US nationals is the main selection criterion, so it's a moot point who goes to worlds. If the US team ends up doing poorly then perhaps then USFS can reconsider modifying its selection criteria to consider other events, eg. considering skaters who win GPF or medal at 4cc, etc. etc.

Abbott went to Worlds in the season he won the GPF, and Czisny's going this year, so *shrug*. (And not to belabor the point, but Abbott subsequently placed 11th and was the lowest ranked of US skaters at that event.) And skate-offs at 4CC are leaving it a little late and are basically requiring a do-over of US nationals, because you will have to send your World team to 4CC or else the argument of "you have to put them on the Worlds team, they medalled at 4CC" falls apart if not everyone who was already on the World team had a chance to medal at 4CC, so who are they going to displace, someone who didn't even have a chance? And do we really need to have a do-over of US nationals one to two weeks later? (And by this logic, the GPF champ would be booted off the Worlds team because she was the 3rd placed US skater at 4CC.)

BittyBug
02-23-2011, 02:50 AM
Abbott has been to Worlds three times and has failed to get anywhere near the podium, finishing out of the top 10 two out of those three times. He is by no means a slam dunk. Lysacek and Weir could be counted on for a decent placement. But Abbott is the least dependable champion the U.S. has had in about as long as I can remember. He is a wonderfully talented skater, but he is not a reliable competitor.