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julieann
02-14-2011, 08:27 PM
Well once in a bluemoon all the stars and planets are aligned for the non-favorites to steal the spotlight :lol:

I agree, those two didn't exactly set the world on fire with their career.

DORISPULASKI
02-14-2011, 08:41 PM
But you have to agree that they were each the right 3rd skater from their Federation to go to Olympics ;)

Rock2
02-15-2011, 12:26 AM
If Jeremy had made the GPF or medalled at last year's World's I would have argued for him to have gone to Tokyo.

I think federations should go off book sometimes where warranted and not always stick to nationals placements. Imagine if Jeremy, Johnny and Evan all skated poorly at nationals last year and finished off the podium. The more a federation sticks to nats placements, the bigger the controversy they will face if they advance lower-placing skaters when they really need to.

MacMadame
02-15-2011, 10:08 PM
IIn gymnastics, the World/Olympic team selections are based on several recent results, rather than one competition. Are they being "unfair", or are they just trying their best to send the team that has the greatest potential to do well?

While in theory, it seems like the committee should pick the best possible team based on lots of results. But in reality, that often results in people being picked for political reasons rather than for real results and that old favorites who have performed well in the past but are not performing well now get sent over younger less experience athletes who are performing well now but don't have the rep.

For example, what if someone who didn't participate in the GP wins Nationals? They have no former results to go on. Maybe they weren't on the GP due to an injury which is now healed though. Or they didn't have a SB score the prior year because they were too young. So not being on the GP doesn't mean they usually suck and winning Nationals is a fluke.

I think in reality it's impossible to pick the "best" team based on multiple factors. Therefore, I'm fine with doing it based on the results of Nationals.

luenatic
02-15-2011, 10:14 PM
If Jeremy had made the GPF or medalled at last year's World's I would have argued for him to have gone to Tokyo.



If Jeremy could do that... he probably won't be where he is right now.

julieann
02-16-2011, 03:01 AM
Okay, what about this....S/S got sick and didn't go to their nationals or europeans and H/W won, do you think the german fed wouldn't send them because it was the rules? I think the rule would be broken and that would be in any federaltion be it Russian, Canadian, American or anyone.

The feds want to send the best team, even if the best team don't aways win nationals.

bek
02-16-2011, 03:25 AM
Okay, what about this....S/S got sick and didn't go to their nationals or europeans and H/W won, do you think the german fed wouldn't send them because it was the rules? I think the rule would be broken and that would be in any federaltion be it Russian, Canadian, American or anyone.

The feds want to send the best team, even if the best team don't aways win nationals.

You can't compare the two scenarios though. Even the US federation makes exceptions for injuries etc. But in order to qualify for said exception, you have to have amazing qualifications. Jeremy's track record doesn't not in anyway compare to S/S. He doesn't even have a world medal, let along being a reining Olympic bronze medalist, and 2 time world champ.

And how do we know for sure that Jeremy will do better than the three that were on the team. Who would have though two years ago that Mroz would do better than Jeremy at worlds, Mroz! But Brandon did. Its not like Jeremy is a consistent skater, with consistent placements.

MacMadame
02-16-2011, 03:54 AM
Okay, what about this....S/S got sick and didn't go to their nationals or europeans and H/W won, do you think the german fed wouldn't send them because it was the rules?

Different federations have different rules. Not every federation is required to go by the results of their nationals. Plus, in most NGBs there are rules for how to deal with injured skaters. So sending them wouldn't be against the rules in most countries including the US.

But if it was against the rules, they wouldn't be broken, at least in the US.

The problem with just sending whomever you want regardless of the rules is that you get sued for not following your own rules. This is why NGBs have leeway in their rules. USFS only has to send the winner in each discipline, for example. The other slots are up to the discretion of the International Committee. However, USFS rarely goes against the results of Nationals even though technically they can. I think they've figured out it rarely pays off and it pisses off the athletes.

bek
02-16-2011, 04:04 AM
I'm not sure how gymnastics compares anyways. Nowadays gymanstics is 3 up 3 count and with five/six person team lineups are incredibly important. You may have finished 4th in the All Around at Nationals in gymnastics, but you might have done so being 5th on every event, while perhaps the person behind you was 1/2 in two events. All the girls competiting for gymnastics spots know that its about where they place in lineups.

And really the thing is the US system has overall worked very well for us. Is there a federation in its long term history (I'm not talking about just a decade) that has had more singles medals than us? Making nationals important makes it easier for young talent to get notice and the ability to compete. And the thing is if you can't handle your national championship, are you really going to be able to handle worlds.

I think the main thing is that the skaters know what they have to do to make the teams ahead of time for example the Russian federation pretty made it clear that if you wanted to make the Europeans team, you needed to place top 3 at nationals. And then to I/K and R/T that how they did at Euros would determine Worlds spots..

You can't go changing the qualification after the fact.

Sylvia
02-19-2011, 04:52 PM
Ross Miner posted a blog entry on his official site that recaps the ankle sprain injury that forced his withdrawal from 2010 Nationals/Junior Worlds and his season to date through 2011 Nationals: http://www.figureskatersonline.com/rossminer/blog-february2011.html

stjeaskategym
02-19-2011, 09:41 PM
Before I write entirely too much, I just want to say I am not some crazed Abbott fan. :lol: I like both Abbott and Miner, and I wish Miner well at Worlds.


While in theory, it seems like the committee should pick the best possible team based on lots of results. But in reality, that often results in people being picked for political reasons rather than for real results and that old favorites who have performed well in the past but are not performing well now get sent over younger less experience athletes who are performing well now but don't have the rep.

Aside from beating him by 0.19 at Nationals, Miner hasn't really come close to scoring at the level of Abbott this season. Abbott's 4CC score (and he certainly left points on the table) crushes Miner's personal best. And it's not that Miner has scored lower than Abbott because he's a "newbie"... At this point in time, Abbott is the better skater and most likely was the US's only medal chance at Worlds (you could argue that it was an outside chance, but it was still a chance). I don't think selecting Abbott would have come across as political at all... I think it would have just been an obvious way to increase the US's potential at Worlds, which is what I think should be the most important thing. If a country doesn't want their best team at the most important competition of the year, then what's the point?


For example, what if someone who didn't participate in the GP wins Nationals? They have no former results to go on. Maybe they weren't on the GP due to an injury which is now healed though. Or they didn't have a SB score the prior year because they were too young. So not being on the GP doesn't mean they usually suck and winning Nationals is a fluke.

I completely agree. But in this particular case, it was a 0.19 difference between a 3rd and 4th place skater. I would feel somewhat differently if Miner had won Nationals and/or Abbott finished far off the podium.


However, USFS rarely goes against the results of Nationals even though technically they can. I think they've figured out it rarely pays off and it pisses off the athletes.

I would guess the very top skaters are more pissed off by the way it's done now. Their recent international accomplishments end up not meaning much, and the pressure to peak at Nationals is very high.


I'm not sure how gymnastics compares anyways. Nowadays gymanstics is 3 up 3 count and with five/six person team lineups are incredibly important. You may have finished 4th in the All Around at Nationals in gymnastics, but you might have done so being 5th on every event, while perhaps the person behind you was 1/2 in two events. All the girls competiting for gymnastics spots know that its about where they place in lineups.

Absolutely. But my point is that the gymnasts are given multiple chances to prove themselves. If they are off at Nationals, they know they have other chances to demonstrate their scoring potential, and won't automatically get "dumped".


And really the thing is the US system has overall worked very well for us. Is there a federation in its long term history (I'm not talking about just a decade) that has had more singles medals than us? Making nationals important makes it easier for young talent to get notice and the ability to compete. And the thing is if you can't handle your national championship, are you really going to be able to handle worlds.

The US has done extremely well, but no matter how great you are, you should always want to try to do your personal best. I'm not sure we can always do that by strictly following Nationals results. As for your comment about pressure, right now I would think Nationals are more pressure-filled than Worlds because it could end a skater's season. And certainly a front-runner like Abbott had more pressure on him than a new guy coming in. Therefore, I really don't think how Abbott/Miner handled Nationals is very indicative of how they would handle Worlds.


You can't go changing the qualification after the fact.

Absolutely, I agree... And the USFS rules do say they will consider other international results. It's just that they appear not to.

Lanna
02-19-2011, 10:03 PM
And the USFS rules do say they will consider other international results. It's just that they appear not to.

Here is what it says in the Rulebook (http://www.usfsa.org/Content/2011%20Rulebook.pdf).



World Championships:
The U.S. World Team shall be selected from those athletes who are ISU senior
age eligible and shall include the current U.S. champion in each discipline. The
remaining selections shall be based upon the results of the two most recent U.S.
Figure Skating Championships, the most recent World Championship, the most
recent Four Continents Championship and all other international events;
however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances.
Exceptions to the age-eligibility rules which are granted by the ISU will always
be allowed.


ICR 6.05 The International Committee and the ICMS may also consider for selection
to the international competitions, ISU championships and the World University
Games other athletes who, at the discretion of the International Committee and the
ICMS, are eligible to participate, or who, in case of pairs and dance couples, have
subsequently changed partners

Nowhere does it say these competitions are equally weighted. The USFSA rules DO NOT say that the World team selection will be made up of skaters who score the most qualification points based on performance at certain competitions. It is NOT that A+B+C+D+E = World team. The only one who must be included is the national champion, unless there's a problem with age-eligibility.

And I don't see what the problem with this is at all. Nationals is the only place where all the skaters can all compete and all be judged against each other, where scores can be directly compared because it's the same competition, is nationals. (And even then, the USFSA does allow for medical reasons, like Belbin/Agosto in 2009.)

bek
02-19-2011, 10:19 PM
Absolutely, I agree... And the USFS rules do say they will consider other international results. It's just that they appear not to.

The rules may say one thing, but the US in practice has done completely different. And there are a lot strong cases than Abbott's this year. For example look at Johnny Weir who was the reigning GPF and World bronze medalist.


. Therefore, I really don't think how Abbott/Miner handled Nationals is very indicative of how they would handle Worlds.

We don't know how Miner will handle Worlds. But I think that Abbott's last three world performances and Olympic performance is a pretty good indicator of how he'll handle it. I mean you never know and he could have the skate of his life but.


Absolutely. But my point is that the gymnasts are given multiple chances to prove themselves. If they are off at Nationals, they know they have other chances to demonstrate their scoring potential, and won't automatically get "dumped".

Jeremy has been given multiple chances and he's managed to pretty much give some of his worst performances at the top competitions the last three years straight. The US men at Four Continents finished with TES below China. And now PCS wise Hanyu Japan's # 4 is starting to come close to Abbott.. The US needs to find guys who can deliver the technical goods under pressure.

Miner is very young and its his first Senior international season. I don't know if he'll do well at Worlds or not, but he's earned the right to try and as I said before it wouldn't hurt the USFSA to see how he and Dornbush handle the opportunity. Its not just about spots for next year its also about figuring out who they can rely on long term.

And as for Marta. Marta doesn't put up with headcases, especially headcases who mess up at the biggest international meets of the year. She'd have been done with Jeremy a lot earlier. I mean she's done with Larson after one bad performance at Worlds.
Please don't get me wrong Abbott is a beautiful skater, and I wouldn't have had a problem if PCS had put him in the top 3 at Nationals. But I just don't think that Abbott has done so much internationally or proven to be such a steller competitor that the USFSA should change their established practice for him. Yes if Abbott skated well he could world champion. Its not about his talent, its about the fact that Jeremy is not a good competitor. I also think at this point, the USFSA essentially issuing the ultimatium to get his mental game together, is frankly the only thing they can do.

reese
02-19-2011, 10:38 PM
Please don't get me wrong Abbott is a beautiful skater, and I wouldn't have had a problem if PCS had put him in the top 3 at Nationals. But I just don't think that Abbott has done so much internationally or proven to be such a steller competitor that the USFSA should change their established practice for him. Yes if Abbott skated well he could world champion. Its not about his talent, its about the fact that Jeremy is not a good competitor. I also think at this point, the USFSA essentially issuing the ultimatium to get his mental game together, is frankly the only thing they can do.

Huh? Jeremy is not a good competitor? That's a bit sweeping, not to mention untrue.

bek
02-19-2011, 10:58 PM
Huh? Jeremy is not a good competitor? That's a bit sweeping, not to mention untrue.

Well then what's your definition of a good competitor. For me a good competitor is someone who normally delivers according to their abilities or close to it. Or they are a skater who may not be great in the early season, but show up to the big dance and skate well. See for example Mao Asada, hitting a clean short at the Olympics, when it really counted!!!!! And then Kim responding back. Great competitors do that.

Good competitor does not necessarily = great skater. Bad competitor doesn't = Bad skater. For example, I'd call Rachael Flatt a good competitor, more than a great skater. And I'd say that Carolina Kostner is an amazing skater, but pretty much a bad competitor. Kim and Asada, well they are the full package.

Jeremy may have 2 national titles and GPF title, but his results are no where near his talent level for the most part. His National performance last was a better skate than Evan could ever dream of delivering. But there's a reason Evan is a World and Olympic Champ, and Jeremy isn't. Its because Evan knows how to deliver at the truly big moments. The killer instinct.

Sometimes you can get skaters who are so talented, that they never develop that killer instinct. The ability to go out there and hit the routine when it counts. It was just never necessary because they always won/did well anyways. But then eventually they get to a level where there are skaters who are good enough skaters, that they actual have to deliver in order to beat them, and that can be a problem.

Its not about Jeremy being a bad guy or anything like that. But reliable competitor he's not. I'd love to see it change and him one day deliver a miracle performance at Worlds. But USFSA can't be at this point pinning their hopes on that . They need to test different guys and find the ones who can deliver under pressure. Lyseck was never the most talented male skater of his quad/not really close. But he was the best competitor, and that worked out very well for the USFSA. A lot of the top men are very inconsistent. And so if the USFSA can find another guy who can deliver high tech content under pressure, with good skating skills it could very well be another winning combination or at least medal winning for Sochi.