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aftershocks
12-04-2010, 05:04 AM
Amazing performances that would score high under CoP, but also show that CoP's impact has hurt the creative development of skaters to a great degree. These skaters are not thinking "points-gathering," they are one with the music and their performances are uplifting. What other performances are there before CoP that would score high under CoP?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtHYSAmLMg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgHmJUbhAUI&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgNEQuVx4zs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk


This was just gorgeous, inspiring skating: 1998 World Pro-Am Artistic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS3FntkFAyU&feature=BF&list=PLB77C3B712329A2F7&index=10



Ah well, the first two performances linked were under CoP -- perhaps the first season CoP was fully implemented, but a long way from all the additional changes. In any case, Johnny rocked the performances and showed how to do it under Cop, but he wasn't thinking of points-gathering. The moves just flowed out of him, and then from 2005 Worlds onward, it became more difficult for him, and the judges became more harsh in how they viewed him, for varying reasons.

Jarrett
12-04-2010, 05:29 AM
Mute any of Johnny's program and I would have a hard time telling any of them apart.

bardtoob
12-04-2010, 05:36 AM
Mute any of Johnny's program and I would have a hard time telling any of them apart.

Then you are blind. He was much better before leaving Priscilla Hill.

cailuj365
12-04-2010, 06:17 AM
Ah well, the first two performances linked were under CoP -- perhaps the first season CoP was fully implemented, but a long way from all the additional changes. In any case, Johnny rocked the performances and showed how to do it under Cop, but he wasn't thinking of points-gathering. The moves just flowed out of him, and then from 2005 Worlds onward, it became more difficult for him, and the judges became more harsh in how they viewed him, for varying reasons.

I agree. Johnny used to be the poster boy for CoP in 2004, and he was favorable to it himself before he got disillusioned with it (and the judges with him).

Thanks for posting those links. Sometimes, I'm so disappointed in how Johnny never managed to adapt to the points-gathering strategy that I forgot how lovely and refreshing his style actually was in skating when he first burst onto the scene.

I think the best example of Johnny's pre-COP skating was his 2003-04 Valse Triste SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2x9RfuxLsQ).

Libertango
12-04-2010, 10:37 AM
Most of Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze's programs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb1wdxfq0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSZg9-Af7kU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT-KW58vWMA

Jeff Buttle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owL49QxHcVk

Seerek
12-04-2010, 11:19 AM
There was a CoP exercise done on the 1988 Women's Olympic programs last year that would have noticeably changed the results - Kadavy winning the SP and Ito winning the LP.

CaptCrunch
12-04-2010, 02:07 PM
That should have been the results under 6.0 as well. CoP had nothing to do with that iMO. Kadavy and Ito had the best performances and that best skates that night. CoP is a terrible system to use for figure skating and because of it the general public is is having a hard time understanding results. 6.0 was a much better system cause all it did was rank skaters. Unfortunately the ISU has always been a misguided organization so even under 6.0 the judging was way too conservative.

aftershocks
12-05-2010, 04:49 AM
Interesting take CaptCrunch -- ITA!

Thanks for your posts, Libertango. I hadn't seen that before of the very young Jeff Buttle. Apparently, he skated better at his first senior GP event than the veterans. I've always thought Jeff was an interesting skater, especially choreographically, and with his great edges. He always had trouble with his 3axel though. That is why it was surprising to see him skate so perfectly at 2008 Worlds. I think JB knew the window of opportunity was lessening for him. He trained hard and came back determined, taking some inspiration I think from some of his competitors, including his countryman, a young Chan who was up-and-coming, and JWeir, who had a very strong 2007-2008 season. The judges picked Buttle over Weir for Worlds 2008 sp, but that was simply preference/ politics, b/c IMO, there was nothing that separated either of their brilliant sp performances. Johnny didn't do as well in the free that year, but he was the only American to medal in Sweden -- JWe then comes back the following year (unfortunately with weak choreo, and then illness, and then was dumped on by his Fed). It was the original Poker Face exhibition during Fashion Week, and then later the premiere of Pop Star on Ice that helped boost JWe's visibility and confidence, which aided him in coming back to try hard for an Olympic berth in 2010.

Thanks cailuj365. ITA re JWe's Valse Triste sp. It is simply a classic -- the costume has often been copied. Even after TEB sp in 2007, everyone started wearing red and black (not because it had never been worn before), but b/c Johnny made it look bold, new and different, especially with the graphic patterning, and the exquisite choreography he laid down. At NHK that same season, there was a young Dai Takahashi performing, and he got a close-up look at JWe. I don't think there is a youtube posting of Dai's performance at NHK that year (he was a junior skater to Takeshi Honda), but I have a tape of that NHK event. It was the first time I saw Dai -- he had such raw talent and wonderful jumps, but he lacked the polish and smoothness he later developed. I think that for Dai, seeing Johnny Weir perform was a revelation -- just as it was for many in the sport that season.

Another of Johnny's pre CoP performances:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhFvPHB_aKg 2003 Nats sp

Even though JWe's lp that year was disastrous, his sp won him a special award. Great choreography and great music; wonderful footwork and difficult entrances into jumps.

Thanks also Libertango for those postings of Elena and Anton. Gorgeous skating. I always enjoyed watching them, but at times I felt they were held up when they didn't perform well. At that time, although I really liked Elena and Anton, Sale & Pelletier were my favorites, and Shen and Zhao were also amazing, but never talked about in the same breath (though their time would come). Whenever fans speak of how exquisite Anton and Elena were at 2002 Olympics, I do agree, especially in the sp, but there was the small mistake by Anton in lp, and Jamie Sale's jump landings were smooth, steady and textbook perfect vs. Elena's that while landed well, were not as steady. IMO, those were the only differences -- everything else was preference and politics, and dealmaking amongst the judges (business as usual in fs) -- only this time the the dealmaking was uncovered and became a scandal. In fact, there was not much that truly separated S&P and B&S, IMHO, in terms of skill level, technique and beauty on the ice. S&P were a classic demonstration of North American style, while B&S were a classic demonstration of Russian style.

Many fans look at B&S's perfect Olympic 2002 SP and say they should have won -- they did win the sp (S&P opted for a cute, humorous sp, that didn't have the same depth and impact, but it did have technical difficulty). In the free program, although the choreography may have been simpler, S&P did also have technical difficulty, and they performed everything with perfection. Therefore, it is a matter of taste, preference, and politics. Both teams, (and indeed, the third team S&Z) were all very close in ability, technique and artistry. Hands down S&P have had the better pro career. In any case, speaking of gorgeous pair skating, this is classic too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELys8PkIjEM

casken
12-05-2010, 09:38 AM
Pretty much everything Delobel and Schoenfelder did from 2000 onward. :P

barbk
12-06-2010, 04:39 AM
Kwan's 97 Taj Mahal LP at Worlds should have scored rather well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-oqwopZta8
and I think that Red Violin, as skated at Skate America would have done well too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD-yxwnAR0Y
(by worlds the jumps were better, but imo some of the best choreography had been taken out.)
B&S Swan Lake 1998 SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJCGGBmCmf0
not so much because of complexity, but because the execution was so beautiful and clean, the speed and edging were fabulous, and we don't get to see pairs skating like that very much.

And most of Kurt Browning's programs would have probably scored very, very well under COP.

shan
12-06-2010, 04:44 AM
B&S Swan Lake 1998 SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJCGGBmCmf0
not so much because of complexity, but because the execution was so beautiful and clean, the speed and edging were fabulous, and we don't get to see pairs skating like that very much.

:swoon: I miss them.

bardtoob
12-06-2010, 04:49 AM
1983 Canadians Kay Thomson SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixXuiiOZ3Nc) . . . OMG I FINALLY FOUND IT!!!

1987 NHK Tonya Harding SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3xshNNvRQ)

Midori Ito 1990 Worlds OP (JPTV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLb9DuCOxE))

casken
12-06-2010, 05:11 AM
A lot of the french ladies were doing CoP-ish style spins back under 6.0.

Gusmeroli and Bonaly would do all sorts of catch foot combo spins, and Gusmeroli and Hubert would do reverse entry combination spins and camel spins with changes of edge.

Also should be mentioned; Savoie, Klimkin, Jeannette. All did CoP-ish programs under 6.0 that were never given enough credit.

Lucinda Ruh probably would have fared slightly better under CoP than 6.0 becuase she would rack up high levels and +3 GOE on her spins and her PCS would probably be given more credit.

DORISPULASKI
12-06-2010, 06:23 AM
Rudy Galindo's Swan Lake 1996 US Nationals

Marco
12-06-2010, 06:54 AM
Lucinda Ruh probably would have fared slightly better under CoP than 6.0 becuase she would rack up high levels and +3 GOE on her spins and her PCS would probably be given more credit.

Yes but most of her triples would have been downgraded.