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PUNKPRINCESS
12-07-2010, 03:12 AM
There are lots of skaters who would have excelled under CoP with the programs they used under 6.0, but had they skated under CoP I somehow doubt they would have skated to the same brilliance. IMO, CoP stifles creativity and freedom and favors mechanical, cut-and-pasted control over inspiration. Not EVERY program under CoP, but that's just how it seems to me. Michelle Kwan, Johnny Weir, and Kurt Browning would never have been done justice. I believe Alexei Yagudin is one of the true exceptions who may have done equally well under CoP as he did under 6.0.

I had this discussion here a few weeks ago (sorry for the thorniness, Ziggy!)
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=75754&page=2


I agree. Johnny used to be the poster boy for CoP in 2004, and he was favorable to it himself before he got disillusioned with it (and the judges with him).

Thanks for posting those links. Sometimes, I'm so disappointed in how Johnny never managed to adapt to the points-gathering strategy that I forgot how lovely and refreshing his style actually was in skating when he first burst onto the scene.

I think the best example of Johnny's pre-COP skating was his 2003-04 Valse Triste SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2x9RfuxLsQ).
Yes!!! And boo-urns to that one judge who gave Johnny the 4.9 and 5.0. He/she would never be able to justify that under CoP.

This CoP program of Johnny's, I always thought, was constructed beautifully.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW9XqGT4rJI


1983 Canadians Kay Thomson SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixXuiiOZ3Nc) . . . OMG I FINALLY FOUND IT!!!

1987 NHK Tonya Harding SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC3xshNNvRQ)

Midori Ito 1990 Worlds OP (JPTV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLb9DuCOxE))
Wow...Kay Thomson. Never heard of her or seen her before, but that's one heck of a program.

Great picks of Harding and Ito for strong CoP candidates, too.

all_empty
12-07-2010, 06:20 AM
Irina Slutskaya's short programs in the late 90s and early 00s would have scored well under COP.

Her 1998 short program was a delight, with a huge death drop, 2A with arm over the head, and a great footwork sequence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJKs2kaJlyc

Her rarely seen 1999 short program was even better, with one-footed turns into a 3F+2T, running threes into 3Lo, a butterfly flying camel with layover position, 2A with arm over the head, COP-worthy spirals, and her trademark combination spin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpOKM8P_Msc

Her 2000 short featured a better-positioned flying camel and a sideways-to-back layback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qP6JJcxLhw&feature=related

Many know her excellent, athletic Spheeris program. Great catch-foot layback (sometimes with acceleration), and a one-foot footwork sequence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAeqqFMXUDc&feature=related

Marco
12-07-2010, 10:42 AM
Many of Surya's 3/3s and all of her attempted quads would have been downgraded.

vodkashot
12-07-2010, 11:16 AM
Definitely most of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze's programs.

Also, I've always thought that Sasha Abt's Rachmaninoff LP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86g-lZbNauU) would have scored quite well under CoP.

shine
12-07-2010, 07:05 PM
How about this?
It placed 11th at the 2002 Worlds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY

briancoogaert
12-07-2010, 07:44 PM
Surya would've placed higher many times under COP
And Philippe Candeloro would have placed lower many times under CoP :lol:

Seerek
12-07-2010, 07:55 PM
How about this?
It placed 11th at the 2002 Worlds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY

I get the feeling though that he wouldn't have received the component scores he deserved considering he was skating only in the 2nd out of 4 groups.

Allen
12-07-2010, 09:02 PM
How about this?
It placed 11th at the 2002 Worlds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w872zjNfzY

I think Matt Savoie is so underrated. I don't think he ever got the points he deserved in PCS, so I don't know if he would have necessarily done better in COP with this program. I think he and Buttle were in a class by themselves in terms of transitions, which I don't think either really ever got high enough components scores for.

ks1227
12-08-2010, 01:32 AM
I think Matt Savoie is so underrated. I don't think he ever got the points he deserved in PCS, so I don't know if he would have necessarily done better in COP with this program. I think he and Buttle were in a class by themselves in terms of transitions, which I don't think either really ever got high enough components scores for.
I agree with all of this about Savoie. But I do wonder what would have happened if he had emerged a few years later under CoP rather than going through the change from 6.0 to CoP. By the time CoP came along, Matt had sort of been pegged already as being in the "second tier" of U.S. men's skaters. So, no, he never got the PCS marks he deserved under CoP (though things did improve in his last season). And it didn't help that he was not always consistent. But I'll bet he would have gotten better PCS marks under CoP if he hadn't been pegged already. His skating was made for CoP in so many ways, particularly the transitions but not only that. :swoon: :swoon:

ETA: And that 2002 Worlds performance was wonderful! :respec:

Squibble
12-08-2010, 06:40 AM
I love how the British Eurosport announcers call him Matthew Sav-WHAH. :swoon: I used to call him that before I learned better. :shuffle:

The Men's LP at 2002 Worlds would be a good one for another FSU Judging Game, if we ever have one.

The Top Eleven were:

Yagudin
Goebel
Honda
Abt
Li
Weiss
Liu
Zhang
Vlascenko
Dambier
Savoie

Quad or no quad, I think Savoie would beat at least half (maybe even seven or eight) of the men above him under current (or 2009-10) COP judging.

escaflowne9282
12-08-2010, 06:47 AM
And I actually think S/P defined the term "unison" in pair skating this decade. S/P just moved as one and took my breath away the first time I saw them in 2002. They were made for each other as in their bodies were on the exact same wavelength. The only break of unison I could remember from S/P when they skated relatively well were their SBS jumps. Even my parents, who were not skating fans, remembered the unison and the "beauty" (though I don't agree :P) of a Canadian pair years back but couldn't recall whoever else was competing with them, so I guess it really boiled down to the style thing.

I didn't want to beat the dead horse yet again , but I disagree with this. S&P had a wonderful connection to/awareness of each other and a terrific chemistry. I can see how one would find them very well united in mind and spirit. However, when it came to their overall body unison , they really did not skate as close together as their rivals, didn't have the same use of full range of body movement, sudden shifts in support and edging, and constant intertwining body-line or changes of hold etc. I found their pairs spiral positions to be very mismatched at times too.

I think both B&S and S&Z's choreography from 2002 would have done very well under COP. S&P's Orchid would have as well.

bbkenn
12-08-2010, 07:01 AM
Many of Kurt Browning's programs would stand the test of COP, just the footwork alone, and his musicality....

Jaana
12-08-2010, 07:14 AM
This was just gorgeous, inspiring skating: 1998 World Pro-Am Artistic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS3FntkFAyU&feature=BF&list=PLB77C3B712329A2F7&index=10

There is a lot of just plain stroking before each jumps. That would not fare so well with CoP.


In any case, Johnny rocked the performances and showed how to do it under Cop, but he wasn't thinking of points-gathering. The moves just flowed out of him, and then from 2005 Worlds onward, it became more difficult for him, and the judges became more harsh in how they viewed him, for varying reasons.

A skater does not need to think of points gathering, that is the choreographerīs job. A skater just needs to be able to perform the created programme.


The Men's LP at 2002 Worlds would be a good one for another FSU Judging Game, if we ever have one.

The Top Eleven were:

Yagudin
Goebel
Plushenko

I donīt think that Plushenko participated in 2002 Worlds?

shine
12-08-2010, 07:21 AM
ETA: And that 2002 Worlds performance was wonderful! :respec:
I think that program of Matt's could have so easily been bland and boring, but the way he skates to the music just totally mesmerizes me and I can watch it over and over. The slow section in the middle where he does a series of edge moves in particular just gives me chills. Pure art. And the triple axel out of the spread eagle :swoon: :swoon: The man deserves sooooo much more respect than he's ever gotten.

senorita
12-08-2010, 10:22 AM
There is a lot of just plain stroking before each jumps. That would not fare so well with CoP.



A skater does not need to think of points gathering, that is the choreographerīs job. A skater just needs to be able to perform the created programme.

sometimes in CoP i think the choreographer gets marked rather than the skaters and if they could skate this choreo aestetically pleasing.
Abott pays justice to his choreographers for sure!