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View Full Version : If Irina was overrated how was it reflected in results?



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briancoogaert
12-03-2010, 06:57 PM
Major decisions I would have made differently:
Liashenko and Poykio over Slute at the lp of 2005 Euros
Kwan, Kostner, Arakawa and Cohen over Slute in the sp of 2005 Worlds
Oh yes, those ones !
2005 Worlds SP was a joke !

judgejudy27
12-03-2010, 07:44 PM
I would have given the LP to Michelle. But Michelle made a mistake in the SP and was too far away from the gold after the SP.

Agreed, although I never really decided which I would have given the LP too. Both skated cleanly with the exact same jump content. I agreed with Tracy Wilson's accessment comparing the two. "I think Michelle had a shot at Irina technically here had she done the triple-triple combination. As it was technically Irina had higher jumps, faster spins, more difficult spins, and faster skating. Artistically I would go with Michelle just due to the overall refinement of the program." So really even the LP could go either way based on that accessment, if in fact you agree with it as I do. And then adding in the SP where Irina of course skated much better the overall win becomes a clear one IMO.



I don't agree about her European titles. She rarely skated well at Euros, and her 2003 Euros title was not clear to me. And I don't remember the other one questionnable, IMO (maybe 2005).

I agree her 2003 title wasnt clear. It was very close between her and Sokolova and some thought Sokolova should have won. Both made some minor errors and Sokolova had the triple lutz-triple toe in both programs. However Irina is far superior to Sokolova in spins, footwork, and pretty much everything including presentation. So I personally never disagreed with the result that I recall but I would like to have the performances on tape to watch again.

As for 2005 I am surprised that was ever a controversy. Maybe she shouldnt have won the LP but definitely overall. Yeah she didnt skate well but she had no competition here and nobody skated cleanly. And a 3 triple Slutskaya should be expected to still be competitive with a 5 triple Poykio with a popped double axel, and since naturally Slutskaya with a clean short would be far ahead of any of the others in this field after the short program, any other result would have been a big surprise.



About the 1997 Worlds, do you think she should have been ahead of Tara in the LP or ahead of both Tara and Michelle ? She was far from being artistic, and her LP, as enjoyable as it was, was not really mature ! So, maybe ahead of Tara, but not Michelle !

My scoring of the LP at the 97 Worlds:

Kwan- 5.8 technical, 5.9 presentation
Slutskaya- 5.9 technical, 5.8 presentation
Lipinski- 5.8 technical, 5.7 artistic

I would have had Irina 2nd in the LP which would have lifted her to the bronze overall. I thought her performance was much better than Tara personally even if it wasnt that artistic and if Tara had an extra triple and 2nd triple lutz. Irina's huge and excellent jumps are far superior to Tara's, and her spins and other elements were much better than Tara's too. And her triple-triple combo was almost equally hard to Tara's (triple loop-triple loop and triple salchow-triple loop). As for presentation even with her lack of maturity,dreadful posture and style at that point, and that ghastly music and black witch dress she wore, I would say she was superior to Tara too. Tara in 1997 looked like a little girl on ice, no maturity at all, Irina's performance was very fast and powerful, and she interpreted and hit the accents of her horrible music very well.


I agree that she didn't deserve her 1996 Worlds bronze, due to her 1996 Euros title, not about her actual performance.

Agreed, and her performances all season. She was probably considered the 2nd favorite for Worlds behind Kwan that year due to her skating that season, so basically she already had a medal of some kind almost reserved for her it seems. Which was not right as she really didnt deserve it here IMO but anyhow.

Ares
12-04-2010, 07:54 PM
Slutskaya won the SP at the 2001 Cup of Russia with a fall over a clean Nikodinov and Sokolova. The overall results probably wouldn't have changed because Slutskaya should have been placed 3rd in the SP over Volchkova who also fell, but I still don't get how any judge could justify that one.

Nomad
12-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Irina's 2003 Euros SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZt4iz2ATpc&feature=related)

Elena's 2003 Euros SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veFDbTmMkoU)

Irina's 2003 Euros LP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6hMXYgYZ9A&feature=related)

Elena's 2003 Euros LP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RrR0cb2aQ)

blue_idealist
12-05-2010, 08:43 PM
I had heard Maria Butyrskaya wasn't well-liked by her own federation, so maybe Slutskaya was pushed by the Russian Fed over M.B. However, I never found Irina really overrated. She did well in a lot of events when she skated well, but when she didn't, she usually wasn't rewarded.

ks1227
12-05-2010, 09:31 PM
'98 Olympics SP - I don't really know how I feel about it, but I remember a few on this board quibbled that with a major mistake, she was placed in front of a clean Bonaly.
Both Slute and Bute were gifted in the SP at 98 Worlds as well IMO.

gbrookgone
12-05-2010, 09:36 PM
Irina's 2003 Euros SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZt4iz2ATpc&feature=related)

Elena's 2003 Euros SP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veFDbTmMkoU)

Irina's 2003 Euros LP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6hMXYgYZ9A&feature=related)

Elena's 2003 Euros LP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RrR0cb2aQ)

I really adore Slute's 2003 Euros LP. She skated with such freedom and joy that I felt she deserved to win even with a major error. Elena's 3-3 wasn't rotated anyway.

Nomad
12-05-2010, 09:45 PM
I really adore Slute's 2003 Euros LP. She skated with such freedom and joy that I felt she deserved to win even with a major error. Elena's 3-3 wasn't rotated anyway.

Sokolova had a cute personality, but her skating in general always struck me as ragged around the edges. Some impressive jumps, but everything else was kind of sloppy and half-assed.

judgejudy27
12-06-2010, 03:12 AM
I agreed with Irina winning the 2003 Europeans since her spins, footwork, even spirals, and overall skating quality and speed are far better than Sokolova's. I can see how others might disagree with the result though. On another note nobody had a problem when Kwan easily won Worlds over Sokolova with her triple lutz-triple toe combos.

shady82
12-06-2010, 05:00 AM
Overall, Slutskaya was never overrated at the major events - she deserved most of her World/European titles and Olympic medals. Where she was often overrated was at relatively minor events, such as the 2001 GPF ahead of Kwan and the 2000 NHK Trophy ahead of Butyrskaya (both results were absolutely ridiculous).

bardtoob
12-06-2010, 06:06 AM
I think Sokolova was better at Euros in 1993 than Worlds and probably should have won Euros.

However, I think there was some strategy involved in Irina's camp at 1993 Euros after the SP and especially after seeing Sokolova's careful tenative presentation in the LP. She went for the big presentation scores, which would have given her the competition in the tie breaker, and while it did not come down to the tie breaker, she set herself apart by not being cautious.

judgejudy27
12-06-2010, 07:36 AM
Interesting, what do you think was better about Sokolova's performance at Europeans compared to Worlds? She didnt jump any better at Europeans than Worlds from what I saw, and she certainly didnt perform better, spin better, or skate with more speed that I saw.

Looking at it again the judges were pretty clear cut. Irina had higher marks both technically and in presentation in the LP, and 8 of the 9 counting judges had her first.

judgejudy27
12-06-2010, 07:42 AM
Overall, Slutskaya was never overrated at the major events - she deserved most of her World/European titles and Olympic medals. Where she was often overrated was at relatively minor events, such as the 2001 GPF ahead of Kwan and the 2000 NHK Trophy ahead of Butyrskaya (both results were absolutely ridiculous).

Yes that is my thoughts exactly! And I guess I dont think that the events she had her truly questionable victories at much mean in the grand scheme of things either. Winning or not winning 2000 NHK for example means almost nothing to Slutskayas career, it probably means more to Butyrskaya if anything.

briancoogaert
12-06-2010, 09:22 PM
I really adore Slute's 2003 Euros LP. She skated with such freedom and joy that I felt she deserved to win even with a major error. Elena's 3-3 wasn't rotated anyway.
No interpretation, at all. That was ridiculous. She seemed to be at a practice session. No arm movements, no choreo. that was weird to watch.


I agreed with Irina winning the 2003 Europeans since her spins, footwork, even spirals, and overall skating quality and speed are far better than Sokolova's. I can see how others might disagree with the result though. On another note nobody had a problem when Kwan easily won Worlds over Sokolova with her triple lutz-triple toe combos.
Well, Irina's jumps were not good. She had no interpretation. IMO, she was not better than Sokolova, who, at least, tried to figure skate a little !

Excidra
12-07-2010, 12:03 AM
I miss Irina a great deal. Skating hasn't been the same since her retirement, at least for me.