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judgejudy27
12-03-2010, 06:44 PM
And even when Czisny skates clean she wont neccessarily do that great. At Skate Canada last year she had a clean short and ended up 7 points adrift of Rochette with the same jumps. Imagine that sort of thing ever happening to a prime Sasha (I mean 2004-2006, not talking about 2010 Sasha). At Worlds in 2009 her LP was almost clean IIRC yet since she only was planning 5 triples to start with, and her PCS werent going to stand out in a global field unless she were spectacular, she didnt do that well even in that program.

judgejudy27
12-03-2010, 06:45 PM
LOL, it's all the contrary, IMO ! :lol:

Sasha's footwork sequence in Turin got over 2 points in GOE with some +3s. It was the difference in her winning the silver over Slutskaya that night by less than 2 points. Czisny's footwork isnt even noticeable.

briancoogaert
12-03-2010, 07:00 PM
Sasha's footwork sequence in Turin got over 2 points in GOE with some +3s. It was the difference in her winning the silver over Slutskaya that night by less than 2 points. Czisny's footwork isnt even noticeable.
Sasha's footworks were really poor. I never understood how she scored that high. No edges, very small. Because she was so slow, she could do a lot of moves in her fw, that's about it. ;)

pinky166
12-03-2010, 08:50 PM
Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to. Cohen often attempted 7 triples a program, Czisny does 5. Czisny wouldnt be on the podium at a Worlds even going clean unless some of the others made mistakes too, although the field this year is weaker so far so who knows.

And even a clean Cohen being unbeatable is a myth even in her prime. She skated cleanly at 2002 Nationals and lost soundly to Kwan. She skated cleanly in the qualifying round of the 2003 Worlds and was beaten by Kwan and Sokolova. She didnt skate totally clean at the 2005 Worlds but stayed on her feet and rotated everything in both programs and lost soundly to Slutskaya who botched 2 elements in her short program and lost credit for a repeated triple in the long.

This is true most of the time, but Czisny's PCS were huge at SC this season, where she got 61+ for PCS in the LP, which I think is the highest put up by a lady so far this season. So maybe if she ever managed to skate clean, her PCS would consistently be really high.

olympic
12-03-2010, 10:02 PM
.....So maybe if she ever managed to skate clean...

:rofl:

This is something I'd love to see, but :shuffle:

pinky166
12-03-2010, 11:04 PM
:rofl:

This is something I'd love to see, but :shuffle:

I know but, I mean, look what is happening to Tomas this season! If he can do it, then maybe Alissa can too! Now I know he has better jump technique than Alissa but he used to have huge stamina problems, which he was able to fix over the course of a few months due to a new training style.

wonderlen
12-03-2010, 11:24 PM
I think the different between Cohen and Cizney is the amount of mistake they make. Cohen usually make one major (fall or stepout) or minor (a wobble here and there) and managed to stay on her feet. Cizney on the other hand, the closest clean skate maybe be 4 triples and poping or doubling jump(s). When she bombs, its a train wreak with fall after fall.

judgejudy27
12-03-2010, 11:32 PM
This is true most of the time, but Czisny's PCS were huge at SC this season, where she got 61+ for PCS in the LP, which I think is the highest put up by a lady so far this season. So maybe if she ever managed to skate clean, her PCS would consistently be really high.

That is only because of how weak the womens field is now. The same reason a past her prime Miki Ando has been the skater to beat on the grand prix. It has truly been a joke. I guess I should remember to keep in mind how depleted the field is now to normal when commenting, but with Kim back for Worlds and hopefully some others getting over their injuries it wont likely stay this way.

pinky166
12-04-2010, 12:28 AM
That is only because of how weak the womens field is now. The same reason a past her prime Miki Ando has been the skater to beat on the grand prix. It has truly been a joke. I guess I should remember to keep in mind how depleted the field is now to normal when commenting, but with Kim back for Worlds and hopefully some others getting over their injuries it wont likely stay this way.

Fair point. The whole Miki thing is especially ridiculous because she's only been attempting 5 triples and no 3-3s in her FS so far this season. It would be one thing if Miki was winning everything and skating FS with 7 triples and 3lz-3lo and 2a-3t, but she's not.

geod2
12-10-2010, 12:01 AM
First of all, thanks for reading my posts. At least I'm not ignored ;)

I'm not a skating insider, official, etc. just a schmuck that likes skating and posts his opinions on a message board, so a lot of what I post are opinions based on hunches from armchair observation.

'reward' was probably the wrong term.

In this particular example, I meant that in a close competition where Czisny and Flatt were vying for the 2d Worlds spot [for the sake of argument, let's say that Nagasu is a lock in 1st and Wagner buried herself in the SP] and Czisny completed 4 triples [usual fall, flub, bad step out on the rest] while Rachael completed 6 triples [perhaps a ur but otherwise as inspired as she can be], I agreed with another poster that they would be 'even' in the eyes of the judges. Now, it wouldn't be a collusion or anything else on the part of the judges. But my hunch is a majority of the judges individually would come to the deciding factor that Rachael would best represent the US at Worlds, better chance at getting 3 spots for 2012 than a volatile Czisny which is maybe a goal, perhaps even snag a bronze, etc. and with that in the back of her mind, 'reward' her with a team spot. [But not 'reward', simply put her ahead of Czisny; that term was wrong]. They could individually do that by maybe giving her slightly higher than normal PCS, GOE, etc.

I don't know - but it seems that many judges know each other and think in the same manner, and don't necessarily have to openly collude, conspire, to come to certain same conclusions about what is best for the US [whom they represent] in terms of who will be the better competitor at Worlds, Olympics, etc. They know past results and watch practices. In summary - in a very close competition, those factors might sway a majority of judges

It's all an opinion, a hunch

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
You make some good points.
I'm sure there is much that goes on outside of and around the typical competiton that could raise suspicion.

Being human, the judges do have interpretive bias with regard to the scoring and rules that is independent of who the skater(s) is/are .......as do referees, judges, umpires, etc. in every other sport.
(No two umpires see the strike zone exactly the same way, despite how clearly it is described in the rules of baseball.)

This interpretive bias will often favor one athlete/skater over another in some small way or another in the current moment or competition.

If a judge mentally (and then actually) inflates a skater's score based on their personal view of who "best" represents the U.S. in upcoming competitions,
then I guess that's between the judge and their own conscience and we would would never know unless they openly admitted it.

:)

victoriaheidi
12-10-2010, 12:14 AM
My prediction is that Flatt will win a second title and that either Nagasu or Wagner will win the silver.

pinky166
12-10-2010, 12:46 AM
My prediction is that Flatt will win a second title and that either Nagasu or Wagner will win the silver.

Not Czisny?

geod2
12-10-2010, 12:53 AM
Alissa's jumps are low, she lips, her loop is poor and she is without a 3-3. Even when she hits her jumps, she doesn't get a lot of +GOEs for them. It's just that nearly everything else about her skating is stellar, and that's what carries her through.

I don't know, I could be wrong but it looks to me like Alissa's jumps are higher under Yuka/Jason,

....but consistent landings are still her Achilles Heel....(sorry, couldn't resist).

;)


These are freeze-framed at the highest point in the jump (I know it's a small sample):

2010 Nationals SP:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4896/aczisny2010nationssp.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/i/aczisny2010nationssp.jpg/)

2010 Skate Canada LP:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5600/aczisny2010skatecanadal.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/aczisny2010skatecanadal.jpg/)

2010 Skate Canada SP:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4512/aczisny2010skatecanadas.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/aczisny2010skatecanadas.jpg/)

2010 TEB LP:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1150/aczisny2010teblp.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/aczisny2010teblp.jpg/)

.

bardtoob
12-10-2010, 01:24 AM
^They're virtually a trademark.

geod2
12-10-2010, 01:35 AM
^They're virtually a trademark.

Her jumps?
:confused: