PDA

View Full Version : Which US ladies will make the World Team?



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12

olympic
12-03-2010, 02:47 AM
Czisny has been planning that 3-3 for the last decade. Great for her that she is doing so well this season, still I think for her 5 clean triples would be a nearly ideal skate, with no 3-3. It's something else for USFS to consider, that Flatt and Nagasu could land 6-7 triples, while that's almost impossible for Czisny. Although Csizny with 4-5 triples could be competitive with Flatt with 6-7 triples.

I've mentioned it before but I really think Czisny's 'volatility' may weigh on the judge's minds, ie - if Rachael lands 6 triples and Czisny lands 4 triples, the judges may reward Rachael with the spot.

RockTheTassel
12-03-2010, 03:02 AM
Yeah but Ashley skated pretty much the best she could at the GPF and still couldn't medal, and only ended up 4th because Rochette and Leonova bombed badly. Had those two skated as well as Ashley did there, Ashley definitely would have finished in 5th or maybe even 6th place. Plus her score was only 161ish which wasn't a big increase from her scores put up at her earlier GP events that season, and she wasn't even close to being in 3rd place points wise, let alone 2nd or 1st even though Yuna and Miki did not skate very well.

True about Ashley, but the same could be said about the current ladies on their way to the GPF. If everyone skated their best, I don't think either would be on the podium. Rachael doesn't win unless others make mistakes. And while I love Alissa, her best would still probably include some jump problems. Also, the competition at the GPF this year is much weaker than last year's field.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy for Alissa and Rachael and hope they do well at the GPF. I just don't think it's going to help them if they don't deliver at nationals.

pinky166
12-03-2010, 03:05 AM
True about Ashley, but the same could be said about the current ladies on their way to the GPF. If everyone skated their best, I don't think either would be on the podium. Rachael doesn't win unless others make mistakes. And while I love Alissa, her best would still probably include some jump problems. Also, the competition at the GPF this year is much weaker than last year's field.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy for Alissa and Rachael and hope they do well at the GPF. I just don't think it's going to help them if they don't deliver at nationals.

I think the only way it will help them at nationals is if both/either medal at the GPF and do so in a convincing fashion - ie not coming in 3rd with mediocre skates just because the favorites bombed.

mgobluegirl
12-03-2010, 04:05 AM
Alissa, if she hits her jumps, is without equal in US ladies.

That's the thing... Alissa, if she hits her jumps, is pretty much without equal in the world. That's why I don't think she'll ever be completely out of the discussion... the idea is just too enticing.

geod2
12-03-2010, 04:36 AM
Czisny has been planning that 3-3 for the last decade. ....... still I think for her 5 clean triples would be a nearly ideal skate, with no 3-3.

From your lips to Alissa's, Yuka's, and Jason's ears....
;)

geod2
12-03-2010, 05:06 AM
I've mentioned it before but I really think Czisny's 'volatility' may weigh on the judge's minds, ie - if Rachael lands 6 triples and Czisny lands 4 triples, the judges may reward Rachael with the spot.

^
Does reward = earned = deserved in the way you've worded it??
I'm really curious about this undertone/implication that I'm reading in the language of several messages on this thread
...and using your response above , Olympic, as a random example....nothing personal (I enjoy reading a lot of your msgs).

The implication (actually innuendo from the judges perspective) is that they will knowingly, willfully, deliberately, not judge based on the application of CoP rules/scoring on the skater's observable performance in front of them, but rather collude....engage in some kind of konspiracy to annoint the "right" skater with the "right medal" (or not)...or would conspire on an individual basis, if not in unison with the wishes and "Worlds strategy" of USFS.

What I keep reading here is the basic assumption that the judges will not/may not give the skater's what their performance deserves, but rather a score (deserved or not) to serve another agenda....which would be fraudulant behavior... and I assume violate the judges code of conduct on some level.
We might as well condone Marie-Reine Le Gougne in Salt Lake City, if this is how US figure skating officialdom is conducting itself.....Are we???

Besides the combination of FSUers simply disagreeing with the judges at times, combined with suspicion and/or speculation, what is your evidence that any judge or panel of them have or would "place" skaters on the podium based on something other than a scoring of the actual performance itself?

I'm not a naive type of person...OTOH, maybe I'm reading too much into these various comments on this thread.
Please clarify....tell me it's not what folks here mean even though it sounds like it.
Thanx.

:)

.

mrinalini
12-03-2010, 05:13 AM
That's the thing... Alissa, if she hits her jumps, is pretty much without equal in the world.

That might be a bit of an exaggeration. Alissa's jumps are low, she lips, her loop is poor and she is without a 3-3. Even when she hits her jumps, she doesn't get a lot of +GOEs for them. It's just that nearly everything else about her skating is stellar, and that's what carries her through.

However, I think it's without a doubt that if everyone were to go clean at Worlds, Alissa wouldn't stand a chance against the big guns. I'd include Mirai in the latter group.

PUNKPRINCESS
12-03-2010, 05:14 AM
That's the thing... Alissa, if she hits her jumps, is pretty much without equal in the world. That's why I don't think she'll ever be completely out of the discussion... the idea is just too enticing.
That's how everybody felt about Sasha Cohen, though. Jumps are always a big "if".

olympic
12-03-2010, 12:47 PM
^
Does reward = earned = deserved in the way you've worded it??
I'm really curious about this undertone/implication that I'm reading in the language of several messages on this thread
...and using your response above , Olympic, as a random example....nothing personal (I enjoy reading a lot of your msgs).

The implication (actually innuendo from the judges perspective) is that they will knowingly, willfully, deliberately, not judge based on the application of CoP rules/scoring on the skater's observable performance in front of them, but rather collude....engage in some kind of konspiracy to annoint the "right" skater with the "right medal" (or not)...or would conspire on an individual basis, if not in unison with the wishes and "Worlds strategy" of USFS.

What I keep reading here is the basic assumption that the judges will not/may not give the skater's what their performance deserves, but rather a score (deserved or not) to serve another agenda....which would be fraudulant behavior... and I assume violate the judges code of conduct on some level.
We might as well condone Marie-Reine Le Gougne in Salt Lake City, if this is how US figure skating officialdom is conducting itself.....Are we???

Besides the combination of FSUers simply disagreeing with the judges at times, combined with suspicion and/or speculation, what is your evidence that any judge or panel of them have or would "place" skaters on the podium based on something other than a scoring of the actual performance itself?

I'm not a naive type of person...OTOH, maybe I'm reading too much into these various comments on this thread.
Please clarify....tell me it's not what folks here mean even though it sounds like it.
Thanx.

:)

.

First of all, thanks for reading my posts. At least I'm not ignored ;)

I'm not a skating insider, official, etc. just a schmuck that likes skating and posts his opinions on a message board, so a lot of what I post are opinions based on hunches from armchair observation.

'reward' was probably the wrong term.

In this particular example, I meant that in a close competition where Czisny and Flatt were vying for the 2d Worlds spot [for the sake of argument, let's say that Nagasu is a lock in 1st and Wagner buried herself in the SP] and Czisny completed 4 triples [usual fall, flub, bad step out on the rest] while Rachael completed 6 triples [perhaps a ur but otherwise as inspired as she can be], I agreed with another poster that they would be 'even' in the eyes of the judges. Now, it wouldn't be a collusion or anything else on the part of the judges. But my hunch is a majority of the judges individually would come to the deciding factor that Rachael would best represent the US at Worlds, better chance at getting 3 spots for 2012 than a volatile Czisny which is maybe a goal, perhaps even snag a bronze, etc. and with that in the back of her mind, 'reward' her with a team spot. [But not 'reward', simply put her ahead of Czisny; that term was wrong]. They could individually do that by maybe giving her slightly higher than normal PCS, GOE, etc.

I don't know - but it seems that many judges know each other and think in the same manner, and don't necessarily have to openly collude, conspire, to come to certain same conclusions about what is best for the US [whom they represent] in terms of who will be the better competitor at Worlds, Olympics, etc. They know past results and watch practices. In summary - in a very close competition, those factors might sway a majority of judges

It's all an opinion, a hunch

pinky166
12-03-2010, 04:52 PM
That might be a bit of an exaggeration. Alissa's jumps are low, she lips, her loop is poor and she is without a 3-3. Even when she hits her jumps, she doesn't get a lot of +GOEs for them. It's just that nearly everything else about her skating is stellar, and that's what carries her through.

However, I think it's without a doubt that if everyone were to go clean at Worlds, Alissa wouldn't stand a chance against the big guns. I'd include Mirai in the latter group.

I agree with this. I think Alissa is more of a 6.0 skater. She is very similar to Sasha but I think if Sasha were competing well she wouldn't fair as well in international competition due to the quality of her jumps.

judgejudy27
12-03-2010, 04:59 PM
Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to. Cohen often attempted 7 triples a program, Czisny does 5. Czisny wouldnt be on the podium at a Worlds even going clean unless some of the others made mistakes too, although the field this year is weaker so far so who knows.

And even a clean Cohen being unbeatable is a myth even in her prime. She skated cleanly at 2002 Nationals and lost soundly to Kwan. She skated cleanly in the qualifying round of the 2003 Worlds and was beaten by Kwan and Sokolova. She didnt skate totally clean at the 2005 Worlds but stayed on her feet and rotated everything in both programs and lost soundly to Slutskaya who botched 2 elements in her short program and lost credit for a repeated triple in the long.

AliasJohnDoe
12-03-2010, 05:27 PM
Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to. Cohen often attempted 7 triples a program, Czisny does 5. Czisny wouldnt be on the podium at a Worlds even going clean unless some of the others made mistakes too, although the field this year is weaker so far so who knows.


Czisny's been attempting 6 triples in her LP for the last 2 seasons. Landing 6 is a different story though. ;)

FunnyBut
12-03-2010, 06:22 PM
For all the talk of Sasha's inconsistency, she was a far more consistent skater than Czisny. The two simply cannot be compared. Sasha is a multiple time world medalist, her Olympic placements were 4th and Silver, there's not a year she entered Senior Nationals and didn't medal (except for last year,but she still clobbered Czisny :lol:). Sasha is inconsistent relative to her biggest rivals, Irina and Michelle. But compared to Czisny, she might as well be Yags or Plush.


I do think Czisny is a better spinner, I remember once Sasha was watching her spin and said to her coach 'I need to spin like that'. But Sasha is the far better competitor.

olympic
12-03-2010, 06:31 PM
I do think Czisny is a better spinner, I remember once Sasha was watching her spin and said to her coach 'I need to spin like that'. But Sasha is the far better competitor.

I think that quote is telling of the quality of Alissa's spins, when you consider how good Sasha's spins were

briancoogaert
12-03-2010, 06:42 PM
Czisny is not Cohen, not even close. Czisny possibly has even better spins, and can almost match in spirals. Neither have great skating skills or speed. However Cohen's jumps when she lands them are better, her footwork is much better, and Cohen gets PCS that were often the highest in the World which Czisny isnt even close to.
LOL, it's all the contrary, IMO ! :lol: