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View Full Version : Yuna will skate to Giselle and 'Arirang'



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IceAlisa
12-02-2010, 02:55 AM
You stated that his opinions are shaped by his limitations, insecurities, etc. This is an attack on the credibility of his opinion, that balletic movements should not be the final word on figure skating artistry. No, this is a statement that his personal experience in the matter of balletic skating is likely manifesting itself in his opinions of balletic skating. It's not the same as saying: don't trust Elvis on matters of ballet in FS because he is a thief, or a meanie.



No, you did not attack his argument. John 3 17 said that Elvis' position was that "ballet shouldn't be the only movement that could be represented on the ice." You never criticized this position. No one really did, only John 3 17, who said she disagreed. It is a very difficult position to argue against. However, you did make the insinuation that his opinions regarding the importance of ballet should not be taken seriously, because of some limitations and insecurities of his that supposedly prompted him to espouse those opinions.
I don't see the relevance of John 3 17's posts. I posted again and again on the importance of ballet and if you forgot, please reread my posts on this thread.


That is ad hominem, because it disregards the possibility that he truly holds those opinions for good reasons related to figure skating philosophy, regardless of any achievements, limitations, insecurities, and all that jazz. I don't doubt that he truly holds these beliefs. :eek: I would like to see evidence that he based them on FS philosophy and have no connection to his own skating style.



Why? I don't believe he ever said that--for all we know, he may have had some ballet training, and found it in some way useful. But he doesn't seem to think it's the only, or even the most, important thing for a skater to learn or display. What is the relevance of this request? Because you are suggesting that his statements are based not on his abilities and achievement but on some conscious decision to eschew ballet, even though you imply that he could skate like a balletic skater but choses not to.


Deep brain stimulation and other potential surgical interventions for Parkinson's disease. And yours?

Chronic headache management with emphasis on migraine without aura. I think people who read this exchange may need an intervention from me. ;)

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 03:08 AM
Because you are suggesting that his statements are based not on his abilities and achievement but on some conscious decision to eschew ballet, even though you imply that he could skate like a balletic skater but choses not to.
That is not what I am suggesting at all. :) I am saying that there is the possibility, and speculation as to the motivations or reasons to his comments is not really of interest, to me. He makes comments I can agree with from time to time. :cool:


Chronic headache management with emphasis on migraine without aura. I think people who read this exchange may need an intervention from me. ;)Cute.

Allen
12-02-2010, 03:15 AM
Adelina Sotnikova has the potential to be such a skater... Yu-na is not the most balletic skater ever. I would prefer her to stay away from the Arabsque spiral because her foot position IS ugly. However, I wouldn't say she has th worst lines ever either. I always thought Yu-na moved her arms beautifully.

I think so too, but I didn't say it out of fear of jinxing her :)

let`s talk
12-02-2010, 03:18 AM
This thread became a dialogue, and not about Yuna.

As for Yuna, I don't really buy all the talks about the choice of her music. Maybe Giselle is not the fisrt thing that would come into my mind as a music choice of Yuna. Using Korean folk music in the Worlds in Japan is not such a big deal too. Korean stuff is pretty much around in Japan. The thing that really worries me is that she is not going to compete till Worlds. So, she will show her programs in Tokyo for the first time. Judges normally don't like when a sportsman comes and thinks he/she will win the event like Caesar (stories of French ice-dancer in Olympics, they were put much lower than they expected). She shouldn't skip 4CC I guess.

Tinami Amori
12-02-2010, 03:44 AM
Tinami Amori, that is not a logical fallacy at all... :lol: And I did not say that ballet is completely irrelevant to figure skating, I said that it's not a priority. .

You said:

I am on a figure skating forum discussing figure skating concepts related to a figure skater. If I wanted ballet, I would take myself to a ballet forum and talk about ballet. .

Your comment gives no indication of how much significance you attribute to ballet in figure skating. Your comment excludes the relevance of ballet from figure skating completely.


Moreover, there is no specific reference to ballet or ballet moves or ballet positions in the descriptions of PCS. Choreography, Performance/Execution, Interpretation, etc. do not need to include ballet-anything.

There is no specific reference to ANY particular dance style in the description of PCS for single skaters.

Yet Choreography, Performance/Execution, Interpretation must be relevant to the style of dance/music/theme selected for the programme in order to be effective and to be considered well executed.

If a skater selects a classical Ballet – various PCS components must contain elements of “Ballet”, including Choreography, which contains dance moves, forms, lines, positions.

If a skater selects a Folk Dance from a specific Country/Geographic region – various PCS components must contain elements of that Folk dance, including dance moves, forms, lines, positions.

Kim picked “Giselle” – that is a classical Ballet. That is why we’re talking “ballet” and how effectively can Kim perform a set of ballet moves and elements given her abilities as ONE of aspects of her programme.

Next time if she decides to skate to Pavane, we’ll be talking about Italian vs. Spanish vs. Elizabethan style and choreography….

And if she decides to skate to Cueca, we’ll be talking about Bolivian vs. Chilean style and choreography…..

Capice?

let`s talk
12-02-2010, 04:09 AM
I love this. You guys are bitchier than the posters on ballet boards I frequent, hell, most of you are bitchier than actual dancers I know, and that's saying a lot.

Good point. There are many ex-skaters or parents of skaters with a failed careers around here. Those people or their offsprings have never reached their goals, so their bitchingness has its sources.
The other types of posters here are figure-skating fans with no negative burden behind their back. They often become the targets to attack.
Not sure about ballet circles (I have never been in ballet) but in ballroom dancing the attitde between dancers are surely much healthier and not bitchy at all. Probably because they are not losers, they are all into their favorite business or hobby and don't really have a desire to bitch on online forums.

MR-FAN
12-02-2010, 04:20 AM
I wish I didn't have to resort to this, but I don't think there's any other way...


Kwan Cohen Slutskaya
Purple

John 3 17
12-02-2010, 04:44 AM
PUNKPRINCESS, regarding your #190 post to me: I used two different words in the two posts where you think I'm contradicting myself. I used "movement" and "moves". They mean two different things. "Movement" is the overall influence that ballet training gives a skater: stretch, strength/firmness, and beautiful lines. "Moves" means arabesques, plies, or skating on the toe-picks to make it look like en-pointe. My point being that a skater doesn't have to be performing ballet "moves" in order to have a balletic "movement" (like Browning, et. al.). Any other poster would've gotten that. You are wilfully misunderstading me.

Now, the only reason I brought up Elvis' quote was to prove that the idea that ballet is a strong influence on skating has been around time out of mind, because it has and it is. You're denying an irrefuteable fact of skating; this has never been debated like this before among skating fans. It's a given. Yunabots want skating to revolve around her. If she's not good at something then that something needs to be denied according to them. Sorry, skating's been around competitively for 115 years and ballet is where it gets its lines.

Another typical Yuna thread where her 'bots help it devolve into circular thinking and contradictions. :wall:

-Bridget

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 04:53 AM
blah, blah

Capice?
I'm afraid I find you exceedingly boring and there is little of value in speaking with you, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree.



I love this. You guys are bitchier than the posters on ballet boards I frequent, hell, most of you are bitchier than actual dancers I know, and that's saying a lot.
Good point. There are many ex-skaters or parents of skaters with a failed careers around here. Those people or their offsprings have never reached their goals, so their bitchingness has its sources.
The other types of posters here are figure-skating fans with no negative burden behind their back. They often become the targets to attack.
Not sure about ballet circles (I have never been in ballet) but in ballroom dancing the attitde between dancers are surely much healthier and not bitchy at all. Probably because they are not losers, they are all into their favorite business or hobby and don't really have a desire to bitch on online forums.
:rofl: You are delightfully evil.

riveredge
12-02-2010, 05:03 AM
Another typical Yuna thread where her 'bots help it devolve into circular thinking and contradictions. :wall:

-Bridget

Of course, blame the Yuna bots. :lol:

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 05:04 AM
PUNKPRINCESS, regarding your #190 post to me: I used two different words in the two posts where you think I'm contradicting myself. I used "movement" and "moves". They mean two different things. "Movement" is the overall influence that ballet training gives a skater: stretch, strength/firmness, and beautiful lines. "Moves" means arabesques, plies, or skating on the toe-picks to make it look like en-pointe. My point being that a skater doesn't have to be performing ballet "moves" in order to have a balletic "movement" (like Browning, et. al.). Any other poster would've gotten that. You are wilfully misunderstading me.
Nope! "Ballet moves" are arabesques, plies, etc. "Balletic movement" is something different, and synonymous with "balletic moves." Look it up in a dictionary.

Hence, you are contradictory. And...are you saying that I am a Yu-Na bot? :rofl: Gold.

bek
12-02-2010, 05:05 AM
If a skater selects a classical Ballet – various PCS components must contain elements of “Ballet”, including Choreography, which contains dance moves, forms, lines, positions.

If a skater selects a Folk Dance from a specific Country/Geographic region – various PCS components must contain elements of that Folk dance, including dance moves, forms, lines, positions.


I have to disagree with you a bit though. I disagree with the idea that the music of Giselle must only be told in a form of dance called ballet. Why for example can't for example Jazz artists listen to Giselle, and redo Giselle, telling her story but through Jazz dance. Was Daisuke's "hip hop Swan Lake" wrong? Part of what make art great is when art can grow and even in someways feed off of other art. Its rather limiting IMO to say that the music of Giselle can only be told one way. I'd suggest that its far more important that Kim's program stay true to the meaning of the story than it have all the moves from the ballet.

This doesn't mean though that Kim shouldn't work on her lines if she's going to choose a ballet.

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 05:09 AM
bek, don't bother...I think Tinami Amori is beyond salvation. I can at least try to get something interesting or entertaining from other posters...but TA is a lost cause.

John 3 17
12-02-2010, 05:12 AM
Nope! "Ballet moves" are arabesques, plies, etc. "Balletic movement" is something different, and synonymous with "balletic moves." You used the phrases "balletic moves" and "balletic movements." Look it up in a dictionary.

Hence, you are contradictory. And...are you saying that I am a Yu-Na bot? :rofl: Gold.

What? Oh. My. God. First you say "...is something different" and then you say they're "synonymous"... they can't both be "different" and "synonymous" at the same time! :duh: I don't think I'm the one in need of a dictionary. :rolleyes:

-Bridget

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 05:17 AM
What? Oh. My. God. First you say "...is something different" and then you say they're "synonymous"... they can't both be "different" and "synonymous" at the same time! :duh: I don't think I'm the one in need of a dictionary. :rolleyes:

-BridgetI wasn't clear enough, so let me clarify. "Balletic movements" are different from "ballet moves", but "balletic movements" are synonymous with "balletic moves". I'm sorry you have difficulty figuring out my meaning from ambiguous referencing, but I guess that's my bad.