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View Full Version : Yuna will skate to Giselle and 'Arirang'



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bek
12-02-2010, 12:02 AM
To both of you, here is the context. I am on a figure skating forum discussing figure skating concepts related to a figure skater. If I wanted ballet, I would take myself to a ballet forum and talk about ballet. :D


I agree with all that. Your characterization of me as being against it or unable to grasp it is, again, incorrect. If the ubers are frustrating you, perhaps you can learn to control your emotions a bit better--try stepping away from the computer and taking a deep breath so that you can focus your answers rationally.


Balletic male skaters like Johnny Weir skate to Poker Face. How very...ballerino of him. :lol: Johnny Weir is certainly one of the more beautiful male skaters, and he also likes to have fun, so I'm glad for him. I don't know if Elvis' stylistic limitations shaped his attitude, or whether his attitude directed his artistic choices, and I bet you don't, either. That is why your attitude/remarks are a fallacy--your judgment of his persona should not cloud your ability to judge his statement on its own merits. (As an aside, Stojko did have some well-constructed and presented programs despite his attitude towards ballet. It only furthers the notion that ballet isn't necessarily the standard or source for all figure skating artistry.)


Allen...Marco...Ziggy...hmm, I wonder why you three non-ubers "get" it! :P


Sounds like Mao, if she could get herself together. Else, I couldn't think of any other current female skater anywhere close to that ideal.

Adelina Sotnikova has the potential to be such a skater... Yu-na is not the most balletic skater ever. I would prefer her to stay away from the Arabsque spiral because her foot position IS ugly. However, I wouldn't say she has th worst lines ever either. I always thought Yu-na moved her arms beautifully.

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 12:19 AM
Adelina Sotnikova has the potential to be such a skater... Yu-na is not the most balletic skater ever. I would prefer her to stay away from the Arabsque spiral because her foot position IS ugly. However, I wouldn't say she has th worst lines ever either. I always thought Yu-na moved her arms beautifully.Oh yeah...I've heard good things about Sotnikova, I really should check up on her to see how she's doing. I remember watching a few clips of her a couple months back, when Tuktamysheva's name also started circulating.

I hear you about the foot. It's definitely not irrelevant, and it would be magical if Yu-Na could fix that. It's not a huge issue to me, though, and I agree with you about her arms.

Mao is the closest to a complete skater I've seen in a long time. In some ways, regarding aesthetics, I consider her to be a little better than Michelle, even. But then the latter had an expressive fire that's been unmatched. It's a good thing we have choices. :D

Dancer247
12-02-2010, 12:56 AM
This thread has compelled me to post my clearly opposing opinion to many of the dancers on FSU :lol: A lack of toe point doesn't bother me at all because I had to spend the initial part of my skating fandom getting over the fact that feet in skates always look flexed! :drama: Granted some can point slightly better than others, but this is skating not dance. If I want to see beautiful balletic lines, I'll watch ballet.

Yes, Giselle is a classic and iconic piece in the world of ballet. But I can't agree with the fact that Yu-Na is somehow denigrating the piece by performing a SKATING program to its music without pointed toes. IMO the best part about Giselle is the life and character that a ballerina (or skater) brings to the role and I think that is something that Yu-Na could do remarkably well. Yes the trained dancer in me cringes a little when she does her spiral basically in parallel, but I also cringe when the gorgeously balletic Alissa does her spiral with that awful open hip and leg sticking out to the side.

I guess my point is that even though I'm a dancer, the the things that are important to me as a dance fan aren't the same as what I think makes a great skater or skating program. And that seemed to be against the conventional wisdom here so I thought I'd share....back to lurking! :slinkaway

IceAlisa
12-02-2010, 12:59 AM
. But I can't agree with the fact that Yu-Na is somehow denigrating the piece by performing a SKATING program to its music without pointed toes.

:eek: I don't anyone on this thread suggested anything even close to what you just said.

IceAlisa
12-02-2010, 01:04 AM
To both of you, here is the context. I am on a figure skating forum discussing figure skating concepts related to a figure skater. If I wanted ballet, I would take myself to a ballet forum and talk about ballet. :D But figure skaters take ballet. They also use ballet. So occasionally ballet will pop up in discussion as well as hundreds of other topics related to skating to various degrees.



I agree with all that. Your characterization of me as being against it or unable to grasp it is, again, incorrect. So then why do you keep pursuing the topic? What exactly is your beef with those of use who would like to see Yuna improve in that respect?


If the ubers are frustrating you, perhaps you can learn to control your emotions a bit better--try stepping away from the computer and taking a deep breath so that you can focus your answers rationally. Please mind your own emotions. ;) Kindly.



Balletic male skaters like Johnny Weir skate to Poker Face. How very...ballerino of him. :lol: Johnny Weir is certainly one of the more beautiful male skaters, and he also likes to have fun, so I'm glad for him.

So, how is Johnny diversity of style relevant here? :confused:


I don't know if Elvis' stylistic limitations shaped his attitude, or whether his attitude directed his artistic choices, and I bet you don't, either.
Just playing the odds and they are on my side. If you don't see the connection, there's a novel concept of denial.


That is why your attitude/remarks are a fallacy--your judgment of his persona should not cloud your ability to judge his statement on its own merits.
When I was in college, I took a course called Psychobiography. It had to do with how people's personal experiences and attitudes shape their creativity and scientific contribution. Care to call the whole course a fallacy? I can provide the name of the professor so you could complain. :lol:

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 01:05 AM
This thread has compelled me to post my clearly opposing opinion to many of the dancers on FSU :lol: A lack of toe point doesn't bother me at all because I had to spend the initial part of my skating fandom getting over the fact that feet in skates always look flexed! :drama: Granted some can point slightly better than others, but this is skating not dance. If I want to see beautiful balletic lines, I'll watch ballet.

Yes, Giselle is a classic and iconic piece in the world of ballet. But I can't agree with the fact that Yu-Na is somehow denigrating the piece by performing a SKATING program to its music without pointed toes. IMO the best part about Giselle is the life and character that a ballerina (or skater) brings to the role and I think that is something that Yu-Na could do remarkably well. Yes the trained dancer in me cringes a little when she does her spiral basically in parallel, but I also cringe when the gorgeously balletic Alissa does her spiral with that awful open hip and leg sticking out to the side.

I guess my point is that even though I'm a dancer, the the things that are important to me as a dance fan aren't the same as what I think makes a great skater or skating program. And that seemed to be against the conventional wisdom here so I thought I'd share....back to lurking! :slinkaway
:wideeyes: :cheer:

Your post times a million! :swoon:

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 01:12 AM
Just playing the odds and they are on my side. If you don't see the connection, there's a novel concept of denial.
I hope you know the differences between connection/correlation, motivation, and causation. Because it's sounding like you don't. :cold:


When I was in college, I took a course called Psychobiography. It had to do with how people's personal experiences and attitudes shape their creativity and scientific contribution. Care to call the whole course a fallacy? I can provide the name of the professor so you could complain. :lol:
And logic is more concerned with the validity of claims without reference to personal experiences and attitudes. You don't seem to understand the concept of logical fallacies, hence, bringing up a college course that has very little relation to what I am talking about.

If you wish to compare our academic backgrounds, though, I am game. :)

Edit: to Dancer247, regarding the open-hipped spiral: Don't Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen do the same thing, slightly, too? I think I've heard Nichole Bobek as being the last one to do the figure skating spiral in the more classic straight-hipped position.

synawe
12-02-2010, 01:29 AM
No one is imposing their beliefs. I do see posts that claim Yuna having one of the best lines in FS, yet said posters not being able to define what their notion of lines is, and then doing a 180 by saying lines aren't important. That kind of reasoning defies logic.

Again, no one is even suggesting that skaters should be exactly like ballet dancers, even though comparisons between the two disciplines arise when skaters choose ballet music. That's not too hard to understand, right?

Ballet training improves a skater's posture, upper body carriage or epaulement, and of course line. It does NOT mean that skaters would be dancing ballet steps on ice, rather it gives them beautiful lines when they skate. I for one much prefer a skater who isn't hunched over while skating with floppy arms.

It was Balanchine who famously said "a person can dance anything if they have classical ballet training." I might add that Balanchine was also a neo-classicist who hated classical ballet conventions. My ultimate point is that a skater can skate to any sort of programs/ music if she/ he has basic background in ballet or has kept up with dance classes.

I think you missed my point.
The best skater of a discipline at the time is skating on classic ballet music. It is natural for people, especially those who like ballet, to have high expectation about it and express their hopes and wishes for better performance and improvements on weaknesses, as well as concerns and opinions.
There is nothing wrong with it.

However, when someone takes it as an opportunity to excessively criticize and contemn the skater that is another story.

There is big difference between “I am not really happy with her particular technique and hope she can improve it to skate on Gieselle. If not, that might be problem.” and “She does not have what it takes to skate on Gieselle. She will be horrible.”

That is what I saw from John317.

IceAlisa, if you are reading this, I think I was hasty to judge you. My apology! But I still think you are a bit carried away with balletic aspects.

People can have different expectations. But the problem arises when people believe what they expect is STANDARD.

For me, a Korean Yuna fan, no secret, I would be happy enough to see her skate on Gieselle with some taste of ballet. But that might not be the case with others, especially those who love ballet. And judges will have their own expectations as people covered it already on the thread. What I don’t quite understand is how an expectation different from that of judges could be taken with more significance. That seems overly subjective.

Are you certain that you are thinking of it with the BALANCED view on all aspects of FS?


Plus, you are not new to FSU, correct? You know that we speculate and discuss here all the time about events in the past, present and future. Why do you act so surprised?
I am new to this forum and a bit surprised with this. (I know you were not talking to me)
I always thought that speculations haul discussions to immaturity. All the what-ifs here and there don’t help build deeper and wider perception on the given subject. There might be no such thing as speculation free discussion. But, the more you limit the speculations the more mature your perception will become.
This certainly wasn’t what I expected from one of the most popular FS forums.

IceAlisa
12-02-2010, 01:31 AM
I hope you know the differences between connection/correlation, motivation, and causation. Because it's sounding like you don't. :cold: You are making me laugh. You brought up the ad hominem argument that is not relevant here. I am not attacking Elvis as a person. I am saying his skating style and achievements have an effect on his attitudes towards masculinity and tough guy style in skating. Again, you don't seem to grasp the difference. ;) Kinda like Plushenko and his quads shape his views on the importance of quads in mens skating. There is no personal attack here either, unless you count "perceived attack" :)



And logic is more concerned with the validity of claims without reference to personal experiences and attitudes. You don't seem to understand the concept of logical fallacies, hence, bringing up a college course that has very little relation to what I am talking about. Sorry. Read up on the definition of the ad hominem fallacy yourself. Your application of the concept is incorrect and not applicable here. A personal attack is needed to use as an argument. More info here: http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html


If you wish to compare our academic backgrounds, though, I am game. :) I have a doctorate. :)





I am new to this forum and a bit surprised with this. (I know you were not talking to me)
I always thought that speculations haul discussions to immaturity. All the what-ifs here and there don’t help build deeper and wider perception on the given subject. There might be no such thing as speculation free discussion. But, the more you limit the speculations the more mature your perception will become.
This certainly wasn’t what I expected from one of the most popular FS forums.
If I said I am sorry FSU doesn't live up to your standards, I'd be lying. :lol:

Tinami Amori
12-02-2010, 01:38 AM
To both of you, here is the context. I am on a figure skating forum discussing figure skating concepts related to a figure skater. If I wanted ballet, I would take myself to a ballet forum and talk about ballet.


And logic is more concerned with the validity of claims without reference to personal experiences and attitudes. You don't seem to understand the concept of logical fallacies, hence, bringing up a college course that has very little relation to what I am talking about.

Beautiful…… :D

Figure Skating programme judging score is a set of marks called TSS.

The subsets of TSS are TES and PCS, two main criteria based on technical and artistic components and their execution.

Certain elements in the sub-set of PCS relate to music, choreography, execution of elements.

Skaters often use classical ballet music in their programmes, therefore their costumes, choreography, movements and execution, portrayal of a character are directly linked to a specific ballet and ballet aspects in general.

Discussing Ballet elements and related issues in a skating programme, which is based on a classical ballet music, is discussing “Skating”, because it is an element in a sub-set of PCS.

Your logical fallacy is that Ballet is not relevant in figure skating.

portia
12-02-2010, 01:47 AM
Doesn't flexibility/lines take years of work? I also think it depends on the skater's natural prowess. MK worked on her flexibility but still she couldn't come to Sasha's level in that department.

Some people are naturally flexible in their muscles/ tendons, while at the same time very limited in their turnout. Flexibility, turnout, and line are distinct from each other.

My ballet teachers used to remind us all the time that flexibility isn't the same thing as having beautiful line. True, because some dancers and skaters can get lazy and rely on extensions too much. Extension can be defined as flexibility accompanied by strength. Yes, it takes strength to have controlled extensions like Sasha Cohen's extensions. Anyways just because one is flexible doesn't mean he or she automatically has great line...someone like Irina Slutskaya for example. Having great line is harder to achieve because it's difficult to coordinate head, neck, arms, torso, and legs to form the perfect or as close to perfect placement. When a dancer has great line, it's probably half attributable to innate talent and the other half to constant practice.

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 01:48 AM
You are making me laugh. You brought up the ad hominem argument that is not relevant here. I am not attacking Elvis as a person. I am saying his skating style and achievements have an effect on his attitudes towards masculinity and tough guy style in skating. Again, you don't seem to grasp the difference. ;) Kinda like Plushenko and his quads shape his views on the importance of quads in mens skating. There is no personal attack here either, unless you count "perceived attack" :)

Sorry. Read up on the definition of the ad hominem fallacy yourself. Your application of the concept is incorrect and not applicable here. A personal attack is needed to use as an argument. More info here: http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html
IceAlisa, you still do not get it! Read your link. The presence of a personal attack is not the basis of ad hominem. It is when you attempt to undermine somebody's statements or positions by reference to some opinion about his or her person.

Secondly, there is the notion of directionality. Elvis stated that he does not like ballet. You suggested that his insecurities and limitations formed the basis of his opinion (and hence, his opinion was not worth exploring.) However, it may actually be that his "limitations" were the result of his opinion, i.e. that he did not believe ballet was worthwhile for him to pursue in-depth. Similarly, Plushenko's ideal for male figure skating seems to rest more heavily on quads and other jump elements. Perhaps his training focus on them reflects his philosophy, not some inherent and static limitation on his artistic capabilities. You and I don't know what is shaping their artistic outcomes, we only see the outcomes. So why not contend with the philosophies or ideals irrespective of who says them? Even, irrespective, of real or imagined personal flaws of the speakers? That is the fallacy in your thinking.


I have a doctorate. :)Oh? In what? :)

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 01:52 AM
Beautiful…… :D

Figure Skating programme judging score is a set of marks called TSS.

The subsets of TSS are TES and PCS, two main criteria based on technical and artistic components and their execution.

Certain elements in the sub-set of PCS relate to music, choreography, execution of elements.

Skaters often use classical ballet music in their programmes, therefore their costumes, choreography, movements and execution, portrayal of a character are directly linked to a specific ballet and ballet aspects in general.

Discussing Ballet elements and related issues in a skating programme, which is based on a classical ballet music, is discussing “Skating”, because it is an element in a sub-set of PCS.

Your logical fallacy is that Ballet is not relevant in figure skating.
Tinami Amori, that is not a logical fallacy at all... :lol: And I did not say that ballet is completely irrelevant to figure skating, I said that it's not a priority.

Moreover, there is no specific reference to ballet or ballet moves or ballet positions in the descriptions of PCS. Choreography, Performance/Execution, Interpretation, etc. do not need to include ballet-anything.

IceAlisa
12-02-2010, 02:12 AM
IceAlisa, you still do not get it! Read your link. The presence of a personal attack is not the basis of ad hominem. It is when you attempt to undermine somebody's statements or positions by reference to some opinion about his or her person. You sound like someone who is taking a freshman philosophy course. From my link:

Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. There was no attack on the speaker, i.e., Elvis. Look at the bottom of the page when it's explained what is NOT an ad hominem argument.

Not only that, but I attacked Elvis' argument itself in my other posts. I explained how ballet is important in FS and is taken by most skaters and how it positively affects their skating.

So if you are not familiar with psychobiography, look at this article (http://www.slate.com/id/2233966/) that was linked on another, unrelated thread. This has to do with Ayn Rand and why the author thinks she came up with her theory of "objectivism" and her world view, based on her experiences at the hands of the Bolsheviks and personal history. Does that constitute an ad hominem? Because if one follows your logic, it does.


Secondly, there is the notion of directionality. Elvis stated that he does not like ballet. You suggested that his insecurities and limitations formed the basis of his opinion (and hence, his opinion was not worth exploring.) However, it may actually be that his "limitations" were the result of his opinion, i.e. that he did not believe ballet was worthwhile for him to pursue in-depth.
Please provide evidence that Elvis, when he first started skating said that he will eschew all ballet from his skating.

So what's your doctorate in? ;)

PUNKPRINCESS
12-02-2010, 02:37 AM
You sound like someone who is taking a freshman philosophy course. From my link:
No. Your link specifies that personal attacks ("abuse" as the author calls them ;) ) do not, on their own, qualify as ad hominem...and clarifies that they must be linked to discrediting, dismissing, or undermining a statement by someone.


There was no attack on the speaker, i.e., Elvis.
You stated that his opinions are shaped by his limitations, insecurities, etc. This is an attack on the credibility of his opinion, that balletic movements should not be the final word on figure skating artistry.


Not only that, but I attacked Elvis' argument itself in my other posts. I explained how ballet is important in FS and is taken by most skaters and how it positively affects their skating.
No, you did not attack his argument. John 3 17 said that Elvis' position was that "ballet shouldn't be the only movement that could be represented on the ice." You never criticized this position. No one really did, only John 3 17, who said she disagreed. It is a very difficult position to argue against. However, you did make the insinuation that his opinions regarding the importance of ballet should not be taken seriously, because of some limitations and insecurities of his that supposedly prompted him to espouse those opinions. That is ad hominem, because it disregards the possibility that he truly holds those opinions for good reasons related to figure skating philosophy, regardless of any achievements, limitations, insecurities, and all that jazz.


Please provide evidence that Elvis, when he first started skating said that he will eschew all ballet from his skating.
Why? I don't believe he ever said that--for all we know, he may have had some ballet training, and found it in some way useful. But he doesn't seem to think it's the only, or even the most, important thing for a skater to learn or display. What is the relevance of this request?


So what's your doctorate in? ;)Deep brain stimulation and other potential surgical interventions for Parkinson's disease. And yours?