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PUNKPRINCESS
12-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Techno is a modern concept, agreed? The music Daisuke used is pretty much a techno song based on Swan lake. It's more techno than Tchaikovsky. So therefore, it's reasonable to choreograph a program that's more techno. There is no mention of Yuna using a version other than the classical one. She also talked about this being ballet music and that she likes the story. It is therefore implied that she is interested in interpreting the ballet as it is, no twists, no modern takes.
It seemed that Daisuke liked the melodic backbone of Tchaikovsky. As I said, why didn't he just do pure techno? Or techno Justin Timberlake? Or even just techno classical-song-that's-not-iconically-related-to-ballet? :rolleyes:


And and Elvis Stojko and his comments stem from his own insecurities about limitations of his own skating.Argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy.


As in “Ignorance is a bliss”?……… :D

You apparently don’t know “the sources and stories” behind few things, including your own nick: “Punk-Princess” is technically an oxymoron. When Johnny Rotten sang “God Save the Queen” it was not meant to praise the Royal Family....... :rofl:
Honey, my nickname is meant to be a joke. :) Your attempt to insult me falls flat.


I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but those you mention above have balletic lines! They may not be like John Curry, but their lines are acheived through their study of balletic movement. That's why they can create masterpieces, they have gorgeous lines and stretch. Only ballet training (which just about all skaters take) can give them this. I hope you understand this now: skaters get their line from ballet training. All skaters do this (well nearly "all", heck, even Alban is now!).

-Bridget :)
You quoted Elvis Stojko about his opinion that "ballet shouldn't be the only movement that could be represented on the ice." I agree. Many masterpieces do not have only ballet movements, poses, themes (and some don't have any at all). Choose your words and responses more carefully.

synawe
12-01-2010, 02:05 PM
I love this. You guys are bitchier than the posters on ballet boards I frequent, hell, most of you are bitchier than actual dancers I know, and that's saying a lot.

I have to say it's wrong to assume those who believe Yuna needs improvements in the lines dept. are Yuna haters. I actually prefer her to all other ladies skaters still competing, but that doesn't mean I only want to read and write about how perfect she is. For that, I could go to Yuna's forum. Anyways she could be so much better if she just makes these corrections.

Also just like to reiterate that if a skater chooses to skate to famous ballet music, then she/ he should realize there are raised expectations in how they interpret it. If the discussions spills into whether the particular skater has the attributes to do justice to ballet on ice, then that's also fair speculation IMO.

I agree that it is wrong to assume those who believe Yuna needs improvements in the lines dept. are Yuna haters. But that does not ensure that they are not haters either. You are taking only one side of it at your convenience.

Then, how are we going to tell earnest criticizer from those cool haters who pretends to be earnest criticizer?

For that, I came up with my logic that earnest criticizers must have respect to her excellence on other parts as well and that naturally and inevitably appears on their postings like yours, Portia.

But I could not find hint of such respect from the postings of IceAlisa and John317.

You are so welcome to challenge my reasoning but not imposing your belief.

snoopy
12-01-2010, 02:07 PM
But, I mean...is there something wrong with Miss Yu-Na's lines in these photos?

http://www.buzzybloggers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/YunaKim.jpg
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/images/sk8can/sk8can%202006%20kim%20sp.jpg
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10500000/Kim-Yu-Na-yuna-kim-10541481-800-1204.jpg
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/X9xWe_deXtl/ISU+Grand+Prix+Figure+Skating+Final+Day+3/xg12Lah_R_l/Yu-Na+Kim

They look all right to me.

ITA with Ziggy that there are enough positives in Yuna’s skating to enjoy for any piece of music. But still, the big thing missing from Yuna’s lines here is tension. (And she is really not as stretched as she could be - the girl has a great body to work with - talk about hitting the genetic jackpot). It is not just about putting your body in the proper position but how you hold your body in those positions. Yuna is a fabulously great skater but I do think to reach artistic transcendence, she needs better lines. But that may not be her goal and doesn’t need to be.

PUNKPRINCESS
12-01-2010, 02:14 PM
ITA with Ziggy that there are enough positives in Yuna’s skating to enjoy for any piece of music. But still, the big thing missing from Yuna’s lines here is tension. (And she is really not as stretched as she could be - the girl has a great body to work with - talk about hitting the genetic jackpot). It is not just about putting your body in the proper position but how you hold your body in those positions. Yuna is a fabulously great skater but I do think to reach artistic transcendence, she needs better lines. But that may not be her goal and doesn’t need to be.:respec: Completely agree with you. And thanks for pointing out the tension bit.

John 3 17
12-01-2010, 02:32 PM
You quoted Elvis Stojko about his opinion that "ballet shouldn't be the only movement that could be represented on the ice." I agree. Many masterpieces do not have only ballet movements, poses, themes (and some don't have any at all). Choose your words and responses more carefully.

And I never said skating had to have "only" balletic moves. I'm only pointing out that the very skaters mentioned for not being balletic were, indeed, balletic. That's where their beautiful lines come from: the ballet studio that they train off-ice. Any skater that has good lines has gotten them from the ballet studio. And nearly all skaters have good lines. That's why those who don't have them stick out and get criticized for it, especially when that skater chooses ballet music, for Heaven's sake.

-Bridget

hotskate
12-01-2010, 02:36 PM
I agree that it is wrong to assume those who believe Yuna needs improvements in the lines dept. are Yuna haters. But that does not ensure that they are not haters either. You are taking only one side of it at your convenience.

Then, how are we going to tell earnest criticizer from those cool haters who pretends to be earnest criticizer?

For that, I came up with my logic that earnest criticizers must have respect to her excellence on other parts as well and that naturally and inevitably appears on their postings like yours, Portia.

But I could not find hint of such respect from the postings of IceAlisa and John317.

You are so welcome to challenge my reasoning but not imposing your belief.

There may exist Yuna-hater in this thread.
But This thread is productive. At least I've learned about ballet a little.

synawe
12-01-2010, 02:58 PM
Comment by actual ballerina on Yuna's skating.

Su-Jin Kang
Current Prima ballerina of Stuttgart Ballet & Royal dancer of the Wurttemberg government
Her performance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj2B8XcX_u4)

"Kim Yuna was very special compared to other skaters. She was clearly different from others. In terms of ballet, she was a material of prima ballerina. She exhibited with her body that technique is not everthing. Simply to say, she was beautiful.
I have not seen a skater who could conduct every individual motion so smoothly like her since Katrina Witt. Her body was well balanced overall, and her "por de bra" was really beautiful"

Yes, she is from Korea and might have been somewhat generous with her comment on Korean skater.
But anyone dare to completely disregard it?

riveredge
12-01-2010, 02:59 PM
All I can say is I'm excited with Yuna's LP. The music is gorgeous. :D It could possibly be her signature program! :watch: Even with the drama between Yuna and Brian last August, the way he described her LP made me even more curious..I can't wait!!

Marco
12-01-2010, 03:24 PM
Skating is first and foremost about the relationship and interaction between the ice and the blade.

Positioning only comes into play in relation to requirements (you need to bend your back far enough to have the position called a layback, you need to sit down enough to have the position called a sit, you need to raise your leg above hip level to have the field move called a spiral). Unless there is a specific criterion for PCS or GOE about toe point, Kim's line and positions are more than adequate.

Kim gets criticized enough on her layback and her spiral for lack of toe point but not enough people seem to acknowledge that very few skaters can get her backbend and speed on the layback and the edging and ice coverage on the spiral, which are much more important qualities about these elements than the toe point anyway.

Not to drag someone else into this but Nakano also had ugly feet but nobody seemed to care when she did Giselle.

Posters who have visions about the importance of ballet in skating should note that, while you are entitled to stick to your preference and I definitely understand your concern, judges and the ISU attach little importance to toe pointing and will not make huge deductions (if at all) on elements that are otherwise well done but for not having toe point.

PUNKPRINCESS
12-01-2010, 03:59 PM
And I never said skating had to have "only" balletic moves.


That's why Elvis raised such a stink about it in the '90s. I well remember him bemoaning that ballet shouldn't be the only movement that could be represented on the ice, thus his karate themed programs (I disagreed with him).
:duh:


Skating is first and foremost about the relationship and interaction between the ice and the blade.
Exactly.


Positioning only comes into play in relation to requirements (you need to bend your back far enough to have the position called a layback, you need to sit down enough to have the position called a sit, you need to raise your leg above hip level to have the field move called a spiral). Unless there is a specific criterion for PCS or GOE about toe point, Kim's line and positions are more than adequate.

Kim gets criticized enough on her layback and her spiral for lack of toe point but not enough people seem to acknowledge that very few skaters can get her backbend and speed on the layback and the edging and ice coverage on the spiral, which are much more important qualities about these elements than the toe point anyway.

Not to drag someone else into this but Nakano also had ugly feet but nobody seemed to care when she did Giselle.

Posters who have visions about the importance of ballet in skating should note that, while you are entitled to stick to your preference and I definitely understand your concern, judges and the ISU attach little importance to toe pointing and will not make huge deductions (if at all) on elements that are otherwise well done but for not having toe point.
I agree with most of what you said, although lines and positions outside of required standards in skating still contribute to higher aesthetic achievements. I don't think the posters objecting to the possibility of non-ballet-ness are concerned about scoring per se (and rather, seem to be more concerned about artistic satisfaction), but I personally do not agree with the over-emphasis of ballet by some posters in its relationship to skating.

Ballet training can improve grace, positioning, expression, etc. not only in skating, but many other forms of dance. And yet, it is a different discipline from figure skating, and I don't see ballet permeating every aspect of my favorite programs.

Personally, I found Nakano's Giselle joyful to watch.

Extranjera
12-01-2010, 04:02 PM
Not to drag someone else into this but Nakano also had ugly feet but nobody seemed to care when she did Giselle.


Maybe because we expect better programs from Yuna than from Yukari? Yuna is amazing skater but ballet can expose all her flaws

ponta1
12-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Comment by actual ballerina on Yuna's skating.

Su-Jin Kang
Current Prima ballerina of Stuttgart Ballet & Royal dancer of the Wurttemberg government
Her performance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj2B8XcX_u4)

"Kim Yuna was very special compared to other skaters. She was clearly different from others. In terms of ballet, she was a material of prima ballerina. She exhibited with her body that technique is not everthing. Simply to say, she was beautiful.
I have not seen a skater who could conduct every individual motion so smoothly like her since Katrina Witt. Her body was well balanced overall, and her "por de bra" was really beautiful"

Yes, she is from Korea and might have been somewhat generous with her comment on Korean skater.
But anyone dare to completely disregard it?

While I agree that Yuna is very lovely, both on and off the ice, I don't think I can agree with this statement. I've taken years and years of ballet, and it takes a lot to "have the material of a prima ballerina".

And Synawe, just because I don't think Yuna would make a prima ballerina does not mean I'm a "Yuna hater". Quite the opposite, in fact.

synawe
12-01-2010, 04:33 PM
While I agree that Yuna is very lovely, both on and off the ice, I don't think I can agree with this statement. I've taken years and years of ballet, and it takes a lot to "have the material of a prima ballerina".

I admitted that she might have been somewhat generous with Yuna and I also have big doubt about "material of a prima ballerina" myself.
I don't expect everybody to take it as face value.
I just was sick of those who only focused on balletic aspects to degrade Yuna and wanted to bring opposite view to balance the view on this thread.


And Synawe, just because I don't think Yuna would make a prima ballerina does not mean I'm a "Yuna hater". Quite the opposite, in fact.
You seem more of "ballet lover" and I can respect it in full.

Marco
12-01-2010, 04:35 PM
Personally, I found Nakano's Giselle joyful to watch.

I LOVE her Giselle and think she did it justice even though she wasn't the most balletic skater in the world.


Maybe because we expect better programs from Yuna than from Yukari? Yuna is amazing skater but ballet can expose all her flaws

I found Kim's Die Fledermaus absolutely delightful and her Lark Ascending exceedingly beautiful. Everyone else loves her dramatic side but I am glad she picked Giselle which should highlight her tender and/ or joyful side.

Marco
12-01-2010, 04:41 PM
I agree with most of what you said, although lines and positions outside of required standards in skating still contribute to higher aesthetic achievements.

Sure. But let me put it this way: if Peter O's forcing her to point her toes makes her lose her back bend or her speed in the layback (am thinking Kwan 1999 and 2000), or the speed and edge in the spirals (Zhang?), I will never forgive him.