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DORISPULASKI
11-29-2010, 09:06 AM
Lord knows, there are enough summer competitions here and there. Is the problem getting the sponsoring clubs/federations/etc to agree on one site?

What are the bars to getting one?

I'd particularly like to see an ISU sanctioned summer competitions here in dance and pairs. It is not necessary for an event to have more than one discipline represented. NRW Dance is sanctioned.

New Senior teams need to get a qualifying score these days to compete at either 4CC's, Europeans, and/or Worlds (ISU Comm 1640).

But more importantly, every year the rule changes in dance seem to be extensive enough that its become necessary to get ISU judges' input prior to the Grand Prix. That became clear in the surprises in the way the Golden Waltz segments were judged this year. Whatever CD is chosen for the Pattern Dance part of the SD next year, there will be similar issues.

It's twice as expensive (obviously) for pairs & dancers to make it to Europe to attend a Senior B than for singles.

It's not like there aren't enough teams from enough countries who train in North America to make the event international, particularly in dance. A quick skim of the ISU biographies yields this list of teams who train in NA, at least part of the time:

Australia
O'Brien and Merriman train in Vancouver for the "high season"

Azerbaijan
Feigin and Krasniak, at Arctic Edge

Denmark
Good & Sorensen train part time in the USA (Cromwell with Matthew Gates)

Georgia
Allison Reed and Otar Japaridze (Mount Laurel with Platov)

Great Britain
Kerrs train in Princeton, NJ, with Platov
Coomes & Buckland train in NJ with Platov

Italy
Faiella & Scali at Aston with Linichuk
Pajardi & Caruso at Lake Placid (if they are still together)

Japan
Reed & Reed (back in Hackensack with Galit Chait)

Lithuania
Tobias and Stagniunas) ) Canton with Shpilband
Aronow and Pirogov (not sure if they are still together) Canton with Shpilband

Mexico
Bruhns & Lavrik trained at Crowell with Matthew Gates

Russia
Khokhlova & Andreev at Canton, MI, with Shpilband
Pushkash & Guerreiro at Astin, PA, with Linichuk

Switzerland
Krail & Peter at Astin with Linichuk

Ukraine
Heekin-Canedy & Shakalov train at Stamford in USA with Dubova

zaphyre14
11-29-2010, 12:34 PM
Probably because there are basically two countries in North America with the means and organizations to host international competitions and both of them alreadty host A level competitions.

taz'smum
11-29-2010, 01:09 PM
Probably because there are basically two countries in North America with the means and organizations to host international competitions and both of them alreadty host A level competitions.

France hosts both A and B level international competitions, it is possible to hold both!

geoskate
11-29-2010, 01:22 PM
Another Ukranian team training in North America is Terra Findlay/Dmitry Dun, who train somewhere in Ontario. You're right, it should be very easy to get a good range of international participants.


Is the problem getting the sponsoring clubs/federations/etc to agree on one site?

I think that must be it, and just getting one of the federations to take the lead in doing this. The fact that the Canadian federation, in particular, only sends participants to one Senior B (Nebelhorn) suggests that they don't attach much importance to the role that Senior B competitions play, so I wouldn't expect the lead to come from Skate Canada.

My understanding is that the organizing committee of a Senior B event does not pay for travel costs, etc. for participants, so the event wouldn't even be that expensive. The organizers would have to pay for the travel costs of the judges.

DORISPULASKI
11-29-2010, 01:33 PM
So the sticking point then may well be who is going to pay for the judges?

Is it OK to charge participants an entry fee, as with an ordinary club competition? That could be used to pay for the judge's expenses.

Or the audience could be charged 10$ a day. Not that there ever is much of an audience for either a summer competition or a Senior B event.

At Liberty, they only charge for the program.

Tak
11-29-2010, 02:23 PM
This may sound to you like a stupid question [so sorry :) ] but what exactly is a B competition [what's the difference between A and B comp?], and are any held in Asia?

TwizzlerS
11-29-2010, 02:35 PM
The minimum score rule is a newly-formed purpose for Senior B competitions and neither the US or Canada has a new team or skater in a discipline that they need competitors for Worlds or 4CC. If such a situation arises they can use their host pick for the skater/team. However, if either USFS or Skate Canada felt they needed a Senior B competition for their skaters, I'm sure they'd find a way to facilitate such a competition. The only reason I can think of is if they had a team with a skater from another country who can't be released until after their "A" competition time.

Sylvia
11-29-2010, 02:40 PM
This may sound to you like a stupid question [so sorry :) ] but what exactly is a B competition [what's the difference between A and B comp?], and are any held in Asia?
The term 'Senior B' is used for competitions in Europe like Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Coupe de Nice, Ice Challenge, Golden Spin of Zagreb, etc. None are held in Asia at this time. (The 6 Senior Grand Prix competitions are understood to be 'Senior A' but the term isn't actually used).

ETA: The annual Lake Placid Ice Dance and Indy Challenge Pairs competitions in August are probably the closest things to Senior Bs in the U.S. right now since they draw a good number of Canadian teams as well as a few from other countries, plus a few international officials are invited to be on technical panels and/or judge.

Tak
11-29-2010, 02:46 PM
The term 'Senior B' is used for competitions in Europe like Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Coupe de Nice, Ice Challenge, Golden Spin of Zagreb, etc. None are held in Asia at this time. (The 6 Senior Grand Prix competitions are understood to be 'Senior A' but the term isn't actually used).

Thanks! It does seem unfair to me that they're only held in Europe - but maybe nobody else wants them????

RUKen
11-29-2010, 02:55 PM
This may sound to you like a stupid question [so sorry :) ] but what exactly is a B competition [what's the difference between A and B comp?], and are any held in Asia?

Edited to add--Sylvia beat me to the response, but here is my attempt at a definition:

A 'B' competition is any ISU competition open to all federations that is not part of the Grand Prix Series or one of the Championship events (Europeans, Four Continents, Worlds). Typically the competitors in these events are not among the top ten in the world in their discipline, but sometimes a Worlds-medal contender will participate in a B competition in the fall in order to get ready for the A competitions. (For example, Savchenko & Szolkowy in pairs and Davis & White in ice dance competed at the Nebelhorn Trophy in 2009. So did Stephane Lambiel, but he needed to compete there to obtain an Olympics berth for Switzerland.) At present, all of the B competitions are held in Europe, so the question about hosting a B competition outside of Europe applies just as much to Japan, Korea, China, and Australia as it does to Canada and the U.S.

DORISPULASKI
11-29-2010, 03:05 PM
The term 'Senior B' is used for competitions in Europe like Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Coupe de Nice, Ice Challenge, Golden Spin of Zagreb, etc. None are held in Asia at this time. (The 6 Senior Grand Prix competitions are understood to be 'Senior A' but the term isn't actually used).

ETA: The annual Lake Placid Ice Dance and Indy Challenge Pairs competitions in August are probably the closest things to Senior Bs in the U.S. right now since they draw a good number of Canadian teams as well as a few from other countries, plus a few international officials are invited to be on technical panels and/or judge.

Yes, but Lake Placid does not allow you to get a qualifying score, because it is not sanctioned by the ISU. And the judging there never seems to be entirely in line with international judging.

I assume the judges, while qualified by ISU standards?, are all North American judges?

So that's two weaknesses of assuming LPIDC fills the need. Not to mention that it is not centrally located and that Placid is one of those "can't get there from here" type of places, plus hotel rooms are relatively pricey, since it's a vacation destination in summer and fall (winter too, for that matter).

It is not the federation that has a need for the competition, it's the skaters.
:)

I suspect that skaters and coaches are going to have to get together to drive any effort to get one of the summer competitions sanctioned by the ISU.

If a team goes to Nationals and finishes, say 3rd or 4th in dance (like say, Navarro and Bommentre or Steigler and Magerovsky in their first year) they could qualify for 4CC's or even Worlds or Olympics, in the old days. Now they can't go anywhere without first finding and attending an ISU sanctioned senior competition and getting above a minimum score.

Additionally, the opportunity for summer input on levels is key.

BTW, the Japan Open is a sanctioned senior competition in singles, and there is a competition in New Zealand that is sanctioned for all 4 disciplines.

Check out the list of sanctioned competitions in ISU Comm 1612

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1880

There is also a dance competition in Czech Republic, for that matter.

RUKen
11-29-2010, 05:05 PM
BTW, the Japan Open is a sanctioned senior competition in singles, and there is a competition in New Zealand that is sanctioned for all 4 disciplines.

The New Zealand competition (the Southern Skate International) was cancelled this year, and the Japan Open is invitational (and they typically invite high level skaters), so there really was no option outside of Europe for senior skaters in any discipline hoping to compete in a B competition this summer or fall.

DORISPULASKI
11-29-2010, 05:09 PM
Which only makes it of more interest to skaters who train in North America to have an option to compete in North America.

BTW, the Japan Open does fix any problems for skaters the Japanese federation regards as promising.

Sylvia
11-29-2010, 05:09 PM
From ISU Communication No. 1629, the criteria for a Senior B competition to be eligible to provide ISU World Standings points:

1.4 International Senior Competitions, provided there are minimum 8 single skaters, respectively 6 Ice Dance couples out of four ISU Members present respectively 5 Pairs out of three ISU Members.

1.5 Events, mentioned under paragraph 1.4, in which the Technical Panel (Technical Controller and the two (2) Technical Specialists) are from three (3) different ISU Members. (It is recommended that participating ISU Members, before entering their skaters, check with the organizing Members of International Competitions whether this requirement will be fulfilled).

ETA: Just checked online and Nailya ZHIGANSHINA / Alexander GAZSI seem to have received ISU World Standings points for their 2nd place finish at NRW Trophy-Ice Dance (225 points) even though this result is not listed in their ISU bio: http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009177.htm

flowerpower
11-29-2010, 06:11 PM
I've wondered this for a while. Senior-age skaters need opportunities to break into the international scene, especially in pairs and dance where partnerships are often re-forming, and where it takes time to develop as a team.

Perhaps USFS and Skate Canada don't perceive a problem because they are focusing on their top competitors, but I'd like to see a Senior B opportunity here in N.A. for lower-ranked skaters who still have the commitment and interest to push themselves onward in the sport after missing the junior age "time window".