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Dragonlady
12-14-2010, 05:30 PM
Isn't Skate Quebec a senior B international? :confused:

Do you mean the Quebec Summer Championships? In any case there is no Senior B International event in North America at present.

There is an agreement between Skate Canada and the USFSA that results from certain competitions will be considered in the selection of skaters for Junior GP and Senior B assignments and that skaters can elect to skate at any of these competitions, regardless of which country they're held in. The QSC's is one of those events as is Liberty, Thornhill, Silicon Valley Open, Detroit, Minto, the Cranberry Open, and a few others.

DORISPULASKI
12-14-2010, 06:43 PM
Do the lower level European Senior B's have entrance requirements? Certainly the ISU docs don't suggest them. And the fact that Khokhlova & Andreev entered at Golden Spin leads me to believe there are none really, for it, except possibly 1. money 2. some kind of cachet from the federation they represent?

However, there are a lot of skaters in the US:

If there are too many kids wishing to enter a Senior B, then you could have them qualify using a choice of prior year's scores or a score at the summer competitions that run early this year (say Broadmoor & Liberty, etc. and early Canadian comps) for a new team/skater to acquire a minimum total score high enough to qualify for a North American Senior B. That would be fair. There are quite a few of those competitions, and they are distributed around the country.

Right now, if you can pay the entry price, and have passed your test requirements for Senior, you can skate at Liberty. Nothing would be different.

Then if USFSA wants to fund skaters to compete abroad as well, they can. However, looking at Senior B 's abroad, often they don't send anyone, which disadvantages American skaters as to opportunities for getting early input.

For example, there are no Americans in singles at Golden Spin, NRW Dance or the NRW Trophy. Back in the day when ABC paid out the big bucks and USFSA had lots of money, there were Americans at these little comps; not so these days.

Dragonlady
12-14-2010, 06:48 PM
Then if USFSA wants to fund skaters to compete abroad as well, they can. However, looking at Senior B 's abroad, often they don't send anyone, which disadvantages American skaters.

For example, there are no Americans in singles at Golden Spin. Back in the day when ABC paid out the big bucks, there were Americans at all these little comps; not so these days.

The same is true of Canada. We used to send skaters to all of the events: Triglav, Finlandia, Nebelhorn, Golden Spin, Karl Schlaffer. Now we send them to Nebelhorn and occasionally Finlandia. So between the loss of the "B" competitions for both seniors and juniors, and the North American Challenge for Juniors and Novice skaters, Canada is not using development comps like they did 10 years ago and I don't think that's a good thing, especially for our women, who need to be competing against skaters with all of their triples on a regular basis.

DORISPULASKI
12-14-2010, 07:03 PM
Dragonlady, I think you're right. And it's also important for the American girls to get into comps early where they will learn they need more power in their skating, need to rotate their jumps, and need to not flutz/lip.

And if you look at what Americans are sent, we sent to Finlandia and Nebelhorn:

Nebelhorn:
Melissa Bulanhagui
Armin Mahbanoozadeh
Jason Wong
Donlan & Speroff
Zhang & Toth
Shibutanis
Kriengkrairut/Giuletti-Schmitt

Finlandia
Amanda Dobbs
Jonathan Cassar
Grant Hochstein
Hubbell & Hubbell

Nepala
No one

NRW Trophy & Dance
No one

Golden Spin
No singles; 2 pairs

Note the fact that only 2 ladies were sent at all, and they're the ones that need the input most.

taz'smum
12-14-2010, 07:06 PM
Some (I would guess most) federations pay the skaters' expenses, some aren't able to or only pay the costs of their best skaters. There are skaters competing at European B-Internationals who are doing this out of their own pocket.


European B-Internationals are almost always at the individual skaters' expense! I only know of a handful of skaters who have their expenses paid by their federation, it is far from the norm!

Sylvia
12-14-2010, 07:14 PM
Nebelhorn:
Melissa Bulanhagui
Armin Mahbanoozadeh
Jason Wong
Donlan & Speroff
Zhang & Toth
Shibutanis
Kriengkrairut/Giuletti-Schmitt
Ashley Wagner was also assigned to Nebelhorn but was a late withdrawal. Castelli/Shnapir were originally assigned as well, but were replaced by Donlan/Speroff after C/S were given Skate America.

Ice Challenge in Graz, Austria: Douglas Razzano; Vise/Baldwin & Davis/Leftheris in pairs.

6 different pairs were sent out, only one of which ended up on the Grand Prix (Zhang/Toth). It appears the focus was on giving Senior B international opportunities to US pairs this fall.

DORISPULASKI
12-14-2010, 07:17 PM
Yes, and there might be some other small comps with USA kids that I missed, but I think the point is clear. As a group, very few have the experience open to them, all because of people worrying about what someone else might get :rolleyes:

A better solution would be to have more Senior B's, in areas where the kids could go without requiring support, because the travel expenses involved would be more modest. Like here in North America.

Sylvia
12-14-2010, 07:19 PM
As a group, very few have the experience open to them, all because of people worrying about what someone else might get :rolleyes:
Could you please clarify what you mean by this last part? TIA.

Dragonlady
12-14-2010, 07:33 PM
Between January and September in 2010 there were:

Nesquik Cup in Torun, Poland for Junior and Novice skaters
Dragon Trophy in Slovenia - Junior and Novice Men's and Ladies
Triglav Trophy - Jesenice, Slovenia - Men's and Ladies - Senior, Junior and Novice
Nebelhorn - Obertsdorf, Germany - Senior
Ondrej Nepela Memorial - Bratislava, Slovakia - Senior Junior and Novice
Finlandia Trophy - Vantaa, Findland - Senior
Coupe de Nice - Nice, France - Senior, Junior and Novice
Tirnavia Ice Cup - Tranva, Slovakia - Junior and Novice
Skate Celje - Celje, Slovenia - Junior and Novice

Canada sent skaters to Nebelhorn. The US sent skaters to Nebelhorn, Triglav, Finlandia and Nice.

I note that there are a lot of entries from Japan and Korea in these minor events, especially amongst the Novice and Junior skaters.

gkelly
12-14-2010, 07:35 PM
Do the lower level European Senior B's have entrance requirements? Certainly the ISU docs don't suggest them.

I've checked the announcements for some of the larger senior B events (Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Ondrej Nepela, Golden Spin). They do require proof of age and nationality/ISU clearance. Some of them outline rules for how many entries each federation is allowed. None of the above had more than 3 entries per event per country this year, including the host country.

Crystal Skate of Romania had five Romanian ladies entered. I haven't checked many other smaller events.

Which leads me to believe that it would not be acceptable for the US to say "Here's a competition that's open to any US skater with the proper US test credentials who pays the entry fee on time. Let's also open it to foreign skaters and get enough foreign officials on the panels so we can get it sanctioned by the ISU as a Senior B International that will count for world ranking points and minimum tech scores required for ISU championships.

I think they would have to limit the number of entries by country, including the host country, and not allow skaters who are too young or between countries. (Or, I suppose, a skater who had lost ISU eligibility, reinstated within the US, but was not reinstated by the ISU.)

So I think this senior B event would have to be a completely separate event from any normal club competition, even if it's held at the same venue during the same week.

And the US would need to come up with some method of deciding who to assign to that event.

Same way they decide who to send to foreign senior B events. It would just be less expensive for them, even if they pay the skaters' expenses and definitely if they do not.


If there are too many kids wishing to enter a Senior B,

If it were open to an unlimited number of skaters if only they pay their own way, you bet there would be.

But I think that won't be an option.
However, if there is a club competition held at the same time in the same place, it might attract more entrants who want to watch the international event and also compete in their own event while they're there.

Sylvia
12-14-2010, 07:39 PM
The US sent skaters to Nebelhorn, Triglav, Finlandia and Nice.
No US skaters went to Triglav in the spring of 2010. Gardena Spring Trophy in April 2010 was the developmental international for 7 US skaters that competed at 2010 Nationals and had never competed abroad before (Samantha Cesario, Lindsay Davis, Jason Brown, Max Aaron, and TJ Yang in Junior; Nina Jiang and Yasmin Siraj in Novice -- 6 of these 7 debuted on the JGP this fall).

Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Ice Challenge and Golden Spin were the 4 Senior B comps for US skaters this fall. Coupe de Nice was the designated Collegiate international again this year (for the top singles finishers at US Collegiate Nationals in August; invited skaters pay their own way if they want to go).

DORISPULASKI
12-14-2010, 09:11 PM
Sylvia, gkelly said there was a problem with people complaining that other skaters :drama: bought their way into overseas competition rather than having USFS pay for them, and that was unfair :drama: , so USFS would not allow such skaters to do that any more :drama: :drama:

Now I may well have misunderstood gkelly. But that's how I took it.

That's what I was referring to.

gkelly
12-14-2010, 09:18 PM
Actually Dragonlady said that about Canadian skaters.

But I think there was some similar :drama: about the "young international program" in the US that allowed skaters at various levels to represent the US at overseas competitions at their own expense.

Dragonlady
12-14-2010, 09:21 PM
Sylvia, gkelly said there was a problem with people complaining that other skaters :drama: bought their way into overseas competition rather than having USFS pay for them, and that was unfair :drama: , so USFS would not allow such skaters to do that any more :drama: :drama:

No, that was my post about Canadian skaters.

DORISPULASKI
12-14-2010, 09:36 PM
My apologies to gkelly, then.