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barbk
12-01-2010, 04:33 PM
Certainly that might be the way it would have to be done now, but is there any reason that it can't change. The ISU does not require Skate Canada to pay for their teams to go to a Senior B, does it? Skate Canada (and USFSA) could change their own rules, I would think?

Isn't there a much bigger issue that the number of entries per country have to be limited? (Or is that not an issue for Senior Bs?) If each country was limited to three entries per discipline, you'd be leaving a lot of couples out (or having to run a qualifying competition to determine which are the US entries) -- right now Lake Placid and Indy are pretty much open to all (qualified) comers.

Is there also an issue with needing to have at least three of the disciplines represented? It wouldn't be really hard to add a small singles segment to either Lake Placid or Indy, but it is a little strange.

Dragonlady
12-01-2010, 04:43 PM
The other issue around Lake Placid and Indy is that a lot of teams will go just to see how they stack up against a decent level of competition. If these competitions become "B" events, entry would be by federation assignment so the new teams looking to get a feel for their placements would be completely left out since assignments would go to established teams with track records.

There are precious few development competitions for Pairs as it is and I would hate to see a wide open Pairs event restricted in this regard.

gkelly
12-01-2010, 04:57 PM
Isn't there a much bigger issue that the number of entries per country have to be limited? (Or is that not an issue for Senior Bs?)

I don't think it is an issue for senior Bs or other non-championship, non-Grand Prix events.

Often at least the host country has more than three entries.

Does/Would the ISU have any rules about entries from other countries?


Is there also an issue with needing to have at least three of the disciplines represented? It wouldn't be really hard to add a small singles segment to either Lake Placid or Indy, but it is a little strange.

Wasn't it mentioned earlier in this thread that there's at least one ice dance-only event that's sanctioned for purposes of earning ISU minimum scores?


The other issue around Lake Placid and Indy is that a lot of teams will go just to see how they stack up against a decent level of competition. If these competitions become "B" events, entry would be by federation assignment so the new teams looking to get a feel for their placements would be completely left out since assignments would go to established teams with track records.

Hm. I can think of two ways to handle this.

1) Let the host country (the US in the case of LPIDC and Indy Pairs) allow any of their own teams to enter, at their own expense, with no limits. And no funding even for envelope teams. Entries from other countries could either be chosen by and paid for by their federations or open entries at their own expense. That may be a determination that can be made on a case by case basis between each federation and their teams.

2) Hold an international ISU-sanctioned event with limited entries at the same location in the same week as the open event. Wasn't this done with several of the NACs?


Remember that these competitions also have junior and novice and lower level events also. Would the junior event also be ISU sanctioned for international entries?

DORISPULASKI
12-01-2010, 05:00 PM
Isn't there a much bigger issue that the number of entries per country have to be limited? (Or is that not an issue for Senior Bs?) If each country was limited to three entries per discipline, you'd be leaving a lot of couples out (or having to run a qualifying competition to determine which are the US entries) -- right now Lake Placid and Indy are pretty much open to all (qualified) comers.

Is there also an issue with needing to have at least three of the disciplines represented? It wouldn't be really hard to add a small singles segment to either Lake Placid or Indy, but it is a little strange.

NRW Dance has dance only, at all levels. They have a competition at a later time with the other disciplines.

In Seniors, there don't seem to be more than 3 teams from the same country (however, how many senior teams are there for Germany nowadays). However, in Juniors, there are 8 German teams, so it looks unrestricted there.

Furthermore, it could be by invitation for foreign teams: the Japan Open is by invitation only.

The requirement appears to be that enough skaters from enough countries are covered.

kwanfan1818
12-01-2010, 06:08 PM
P/B are based in Moscow now, so it's not exactly a short hop to some European events.
Direct Flight Times:

Moscow to Prague: 2hrs, 40min
Moscow to Frankfurt: 3hr, 20min
Moscow to Paris: 3hr, 55min
Moscow to Helsinki: 1hr, 40min

Timezone difference: 1-2 hrs.

NYC to Prague*: 10+ hrs with one connection
NYC to Frankfurt: 10hr
NYC to Paris: 7hr, 20min
NYC to Helsinki: 8hr, 5min

Add 2-4 hours to get to a NYC airport from Delaware or connection through Philadelphia.

Timezone difference: 6-7 hours.

Detroit to Prague: 11-13+ hours with connection
Detroit to Frankfurt: 8hr, 25min
Detroit to Paris: 7hr, 55min
Detroit to Helsinki*: 12+ hours with one connection, 14-18 hours with two.

Timezone difference: 6-7 hours

Denver to Prague: 14-16+ hours, two connections
Denver to Frankfurt: 9hr, 55min
Denver to Paris: 12-14+ hours, one connection
Denver to Helsinki: 15-20+ hours, two connections

Timezone difference: 8-9 hours

*There may be direct flights a couple of times a week, but none on the Tuesday in January 2011 that I used for Expedia searches

Any additional travel is equal for competitors, but the comparison between traveling from a major European hub where the skaters live -- less than four hours to most European hubs -- and a skater who lives near one of the major US hubs -- is stark, not only in terms of flight hours, but also in terms of jet lag. By contrast, a senior B in Detroit would be 0-3 hours in timezone difference and less than four hours from most US hub cities.

Exceptions, i.e., new teams that have no minimum scores, would almost never make it worth it for USFS to host a senior B event: it would be cheaper to send one or two teams to Europe, even if it disrupts their training schedule. However, the ability to get early monitoring for a bulk of their skaters should, IMO. The event could take place in late summer or early fall, since most of the teams would not be participating in Grand Prix or European Senior B's.

DORISPULASKI
12-01-2010, 08:57 PM
Sylvia quoted the defining section of ISU Comm 1629 about what makes a Senior B that counts for World Standings points:


1.4 International Senior Competitions, provided there are minimum 8 single skaters, respectively 6 Ice Dance couples out of four ISU Members present respectively 5 Pairs out of three ISU Members.

1.5 Events, mentioned under paragraph 1.4, in which the Technical Panel (Technical Controller and the two (2) Technical Specialists) are from three (3) different ISU Members. (It is recommended that participating ISU Members, before entering their skaters, check with the organizing Members of International Competitions whether this requirement will be fulfilled).

1.6 Regional International Competition (e.g. Nordics, Asian Winter Games etc.) or competitions, which are open only for special groups of skaters (e.g. Universiade, events with invitations only to designated Members (except the ISU Grand Prix events), etc.) will not count for the ISU World Standings/Season’s World Ranking (The International Competitions falling into this category will be identified in the Event Calendar published on the ISU website www.isu.org).

So: you must have at least 6 dance teams
you must have at least 4 member countries represented in dance
You must use ISU supplied tech panel with members from 3 different countries.
You must not be just regional-i.e. block some countries from participating.

In pairs, it's 6 pairs and 3 countries-Indy pairs would easily qualify.

So the "expense" is that you have to pay the travel expenses of the tech panel, which is cheaper, I'd think than sending 3 teams overseas.

LPIDC would fit this just fine.

The first paragraph is a little confusing, but since NRW Dance is sanctioned, it is obviously not necessary to have all disciplines represented in the same week at the same competition.

I don't know why somebody hasn't filed an application with the ISU to make LPIDC & Indy Pairs sanctioned Senior B's..

Sylvia
12-01-2010, 09:20 PM
I don't know why somebody hasn't filed an application with the ISU to make LPIDC & Indy Pairs sanctioned Senior B's..
These 2 summer competitions currently serve an important purpose for as many teams as possible to receive initial feedback and critiques on programs, technical details, etc., before the start of the new international season. Any Senior B in North America ideally would take place in September, IMO.

JanetB
12-01-2010, 11:05 PM
Mexico has hosted several JGP could they hold a Senior B

Coco
12-01-2010, 11:17 PM
But a Senior B serves much the same purpose ("to receive initial feedback and critiques on programs, technical details, etc. ").

When you are considering sending someone all the way to Europe, on the Federation's dime, you want them to be more prepared than they are at LP. But if gKelly's scenario is put into place, what's the harm in letting new teams achieve their qualifying score and more accomplished teams get some world ranking points?

DORISPULASKI
12-02-2010, 12:04 AM
Mexico has hosted several JGP could they hold a Senior B

I don't see why not. They are an ISU member. For that matter, so is Puerto Rico. If Canada and the US can't get their act together, maybe Mexico can?


But a Senior B serves much the same purpose ("to receive initial feedback and critiques on programs, technical details, etc. ").

When you are considering sending someone all the way to Europe, on the Federation's dime, you want them to be more prepared than they are at LP. But if gKelly's scenario is put into place, what's the harm in letting new teams achieve their qualifying score and more accomplished teams get some world ranking points?

That would be my point :slinkaway:

Coco
12-02-2010, 01:11 AM
LOL, I obviously agree with you.

I also think that a North American Senior B for dance or pairs in September would have more trouble drawing the requisite "foreigners" from Europe. There are established Senior B events in Europe in Sept and Oct.

But ...in the summer, there wouldn't be competition from these other events. Also, don't some European teams train in North America, or at least spend some time in the summer traveling to NA for work with coaches based here?

DORISPULASKI
12-02-2010, 01:35 AM
Upthread, I made a quick list of the dancers training in the US-
Heck, you could get the extra countries all within Detroit alone, if you wanted.

Pairs, you don't need as many countries, but it's trickier.

Obviously, you've got US and Canada.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009756.htm

The above team from Chinese Taipei trained with Peter Oppegard last year (bio not updated this year)

Crenshaw & Tsagris (Greece) trained in the US last year.

Montalbano & Krasnopolski (ISR) train in the US in Hackensack

Della Monica & Kocon (ITA) train in Montreal

Takahashi & Tran (JPN) train in Canada

Jorg & Koenderink (NED) trained last year in Canada

Additionally, you have teams that are choreographed by people here in the US.

Still, a pairs comp would be more difficult to attract competitors-

Still, if you threw the competition convenient to where Takahashi and Tran train, you'd get 3 countries, which is all you need.

Sylvia
12-13-2010, 09:54 PM
Lord knows, there are enough summer competitions here and there. Is the problem getting the sponsoring clubs/federations/etc to agree on one site?

What are the bars to getting one?
I've heard through the grapevine that US Figure Skating does have people looking into how a Senior B competition could be made to work in the US; however, financial obstacles appear to pose the biggest challenges -- mainly, the cost of flying in a minimum number of international judges and technical panel officials (need at least 3 countries represented) and ice time. Major club competitions like Liberty, Indy Challenge, Skate Detroit, etc., aim to make money for their respective clubs by having as many competitors as possible pay entrance fees. A Senior B would very likely have a more limited field of competitors.

It's a good question and topic, though.

DORISPULASKI
12-13-2010, 10:07 PM
They need to have someone committed to the YES answer (coaches, skaters) and not the NO answer (USFS) if they want to get it done. I suggest they ask Marina Zoueva about helping to get it done.

Dragonlady
12-13-2010, 10:11 PM
I think that as long as "making money for the host club" is a consideration, it won't happen in the US.