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missing
11-22-2010, 06:17 PM
In the Universal Sports coverage yesterday, it was mentioned that Tomas Verner was now doing full run throughs in his practice sessions, rather than skating sections of his programs.

I was curious about the advantages and disadvantages of each system. Do skaters who practice sections progress until they do full run throughs days before the competition? Do skaters who practice full run throughs start with sections?

If you skate sections, do you repeat one section several times before going to the next?

Just curious.

purple skates
11-22-2010, 06:25 PM
Obviously I'm not an elite, but when I train my program I generally seperate it into three sections. I start doing sections in isolation, then move to doing one, rest, one while in the music, then to back to back, then to full programs.

Doing this keeps me from wanting to throw up when I start training them. :shuffle:

floskate
11-22-2010, 06:36 PM
Since I haven't skated a program since I was like 6, I'll stick to dance as an analogy. Running sections is great to focus on the details and polish etc, but eventually you have to string it all together and there really is no substitute for full runthroughs. It's the only way to build stamina. When my students are comfortable dancing a routine I have them do double and sometimes triple runthroughs. Obviously towards the end of the 3rd runthrough it starts to get sloppy but eventually it makes a single runthrough much easier to handle. I would imagine this is the case with skating too. I think it certainly helps with consistency as well.

purple skates
11-22-2010, 06:38 PM
It does, floskate. Double run throughs are extremely helpful, especially when you can get to the point where you can run through both clean. I know of skaters who have done triple run throughs when training to skate at altitude, but I never have. Of course, the one time I competed at altitude, I sucked, so maybe I should have. :lol:

floskate
11-22-2010, 06:46 PM
I hate watching skaters at altitude. I actually fear for them, but I can see the theory behind triple runthroughs as good preparation for it. I really don't understand how just skating sections in practice can really have any benefits at all. It's clear that runthroughs have worked wonders for Verner.

Rob
11-22-2010, 07:03 PM
ITA with floskate - we always did double and sometimes triple runthroughs in the dance companies I worked with. We would rehearse sections as well, but we always did a few runthroughs at the beginning and end of the day.

DickButtonFan
11-22-2010, 07:30 PM
I had to do 2 double run throughs a day. I think it helped, if I wouldn't have done them I prob wouldn't have had the stamina I had for competition. Can't imagine how verner just started doing them daily?

Dragonlady
11-22-2010, 09:46 PM
Doing full run-throughs seems to result in a lack of stamina for some skaters, Verner included. He often seemed to run out of gas partway through his programs, starting out well, but missing jumps and losing speed closer to the end of his program. He commented in an interview that doing full run-throughs has improved his stamina.

Japanfan
11-22-2010, 10:01 PM
From what the Canadian commentators say I gather that Russians/Europeans generally full run-throughs? There must be some logic to this system, given how many champions and strong Russian/European skaters they are.

victorskid
11-22-2010, 11:17 PM
Doing full run-throughs seems to result in a lack of stamina for some skaters, Verner included. He often seemed to run out of gas partway through his programs, starting out well, but missing jumps and losing speed closer to the end of his program. He commented in an interview that doing full run-throughs has improved his stamina.

I think you meant, in the first sentence, not doing full run-throughs. Certainly Tomas indicated that the European/Russian style of training does not involve full run-throughs and that was a big change for him when he came to Canada to train.

Paul Wylie commented on the NBC coverage that, even though it's early days, the change in training style seems to have helped with Tomas' stamina.

victoriaheidi
11-23-2010, 02:24 AM
I don't skate (I'm into roller dance, myself), but I can't imagine sections being helpful once the program is competition-ready (unless, of course, something needs fine tuning. I see limited value in only running sections of a program). In the early days, sections may be useful to break the choreography up and learn the basics of the program, but it's not really going to help you find the flow of the program or get you used to the idea of skating the whole thing.

Plus, it totally helps with stamina and focus.

dinakt
11-23-2010, 02:35 AM
Since I haven't skated a program since I was like 6, I'll stick to dance as an analogy. Running sections is great to focus on the details and polish etc, but eventually you have to string it all together and there really is no substitute for full runthroughs. It's the only way to build stamina. When my students are comfortable dancing a routine I have them do double and sometimes triple runthroughs. Obviously towards the end of the 3rd runthrough it starts to get sloppy but eventually it makes a single runthrough much easier to handle. I would imagine this is the case with skating too. I think it certainly helps with consistency as well.

100 % ITA.
From a musician's perspective:
One learns in parts. Then does run- throughs, and then addresses separately all the area which were problematic during the run- throughs. Then complete run- through again, trying to focus on problem areas ( in ideal world). Being able to do several run- throughs in one practice indicates that there is a good chance of a clean run- through under pressure. Of course, sometimes the material is so hard and extensive that it is not possible to repeat a run- through. Then you work on parts, build stamina and hope for the best.
I cannot imagine doing a competition without prior run- through training. Nerves eat up energy, attention wavers... unless there are build- in resourses, a collapse is likely.
Would love to know what, if any, are PROS for doing so few run- throughs.

Eman_fan
11-23-2010, 05:23 AM
As a dancer (ballet,tap, jazz, etc) and former skater I feel that doing a dance in sections can help getting the details and musicality of the dance down. I like to work in sections when cleaning a number and especially for the end of a number since it is usually less rehearsed but once you have the pieces down you have to do run throughs and double run throughs. You may think that you are in good shape but until you are trying to do a hard element with you legs burning you don't realize how much more work is needed. It is also helpful because when you are at a competition you are going to be tired from traveling and you won't have as much training time so having done double runs will help you push thru the pain and you will be working off muscle memory in the routines. The times that I did multiple run thrus of numbers in pratice really benefited me in competition even when something unexpected happened. When I was competiting in one of my dance solos that I had rehearsed hundreds of time I turned the wrong way and because of muscle memory without even thinking about it I was back on track with my choreo.

manhn
11-23-2010, 05:34 AM
So, what happens with Russian/European coaches who live in North Americans? Do skaters like D&W or Weir practice in sections or full run-throughs?

Anita18
11-23-2010, 05:43 AM
100 % ITA.
From a musician's perspective:
One learns in parts. Then does run- throughs, and then addresses separately all the area which were problematic during the run- throughs. Then complete run- through again, trying to focus on problem areas ( in ideal world). Being able to do several run- throughs in one practice indicates that there is a good chance of a clean run- through under pressure. Of course, sometimes the material is so hard and extensive that it is not possible to repeat a run- through. Then you work on parts, build stamina and hope for the best.
I cannot imagine doing a competition without prior run- through training. Nerves eat up energy, attention wavers... unless there are build- in resourses, a collapse is likely.
Would love to know what, if any, are PROS for doing so few run- throughs.
This is what I did for piano, and I'm not a professional by any means. It was just the most efficient way to practice. Determine what parts need working on, work on just those parts until they come naturally (or in my case, at least until I feel pretty confident I can get through it without freaking out :lol: ), work on the transitions going into them, then do the whole thing to make sure you can handle the whole thing mentally.