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equatorial
11-23-2010, 05:49 AM
I think you meant, in the first sentence, not doing full run-throughs. Certainly Tomas indicated that the European/Russian style of training does not involve full run-throughs and that was a big change for him when he came to Canada to train.

Paul Wylie commented on the NBC coverage that, even though it's early days, the change in training style seems to have helped with Tomas' stamina.

It's not true for every Russian coach (don't know about the European ones). TAT wrote in her memoirs that she made Kulik do double full run-throughs. It took her a while to persuade him though. Apparently, Kudryavtsev's skaters were not used to such training regiment. It would explain nicely why so many of his skaters failed to perform well under pressure despite having very good technique.

Dragonlady
11-23-2010, 02:32 PM
So, what happens with Russian/European coaches who live in North Americans? Do skaters like D&W or Weir practice in sections or full run-throughs?

It depends on whether the coaches adapt to the North American system when they get here.

I remember V&M saying that Canadians was the third or fourth full run-through of their Pink Floyd program which suggests to me that they were accustomed to doing full run-throughs and not doing them was the exception. I've never asked anyone from Canton what method they use so I can't be certain about this though.

Nmsis
11-23-2010, 03:41 PM
I think you meant, in the first sentence, not doing full run-throughs. Certainly Tomas indicated that the European/Russian style of training does not involve full run-throughs and that was a big change for him when he came to Canada to train.
Joubert has skated exclusively with french coaches and does full run-throughs. And there are other coaches who don't. I wouldn't talk about a unified style in Europe. It varies.

C_T_T_
11-23-2010, 03:59 PM
I wouldn't talk about a unified style in Europe. It varies.

Exactly.

Chris Howarth talked about the benefits of traing sections during commentary on Eurosport a few years ago. He said something along the lines of it helping mentally because if you make a mistake during competition, it's easier to move on because your used to thinking of the program as seperate parts. I can see that working but I also don't see how you can compete without having done full run throughs. I also read somewhere (no idea where!) that some coaches are not fans of double run throughs as by the end of the second one the skater is so exhausted mistakes creep in which lowers confidence. I guess it depends on the skater and coach. I assume the majority of skaters do a mixture of both.

smarts1
11-24-2010, 12:04 AM
^ That's why I read somewhere that for double runthroughs, as a skater starts doing them, they'll gradually add parts to the second run through to increase the stamina and confindence. When the coach says that they'll start doing double run throughs, they don't start doing it all at once. They'll do maybe 1 and 1/4 for a little bit then gradually increase to 2.

GarrAarghHrumph
11-24-2010, 01:29 AM
I had to do 2 double run throughs a day. I think it helped, if I wouldn't have done them I prob wouldn't have had the stamina I had for competition. Can't imagine how verner just started doing them daily?

As others have mentioned, in the parts of Eastern Europe that I'm familiar with, and especially in what I'd call the "Russian school" of skating, full run throughs aren't really done in the way that they are in US skating.


From what the Canadian commentators say I gather that Russians/Europeans generally full run-throughs? There must be some logic to this system, given how many champions and strong Russian/European skaters they are.

Russians don't traditionally do full run throughs as done in US training. I remember people I know commenting on that re: one Russian skater. He didn't normally do full run throughs in his training, and although he did well in the competition being discussed, the altitude wiped him out - so much so that rather than being able to celebrate his performance, he became ill immediately after it.


So, what happens with Russian/European coaches who live in North Americans? Do skaters like D&W or Weir practice in sections or full run-throughs?

Most of the Russian coaches I know in the US do have their students do full run throughs. I've also seen them do sections. So perhaps for these coaches, it's a hybrid?

Eman_fan
11-24-2010, 04:10 AM
It depends on whether the coaches adapt to the North American system when they get here.

I remember V&M saying that Canadians was the third or fourth full run-through of their Pink Floyd program which suggests to me that they were accustomed to doing full run-throughs and not doing them was the exception. I've never asked anyone from Canton what method they use so I can't be certain about this though.

V & M had only done a couple of run throughs of Pink Floyd because Tessa was still recovering from her surgery. It was not the norm and if you read their book they explain that she was still in a lot of pain at Canadians but they keep it a secret. They do full run throughs and double run throughs but they were trying to manage the pain that Tessa was feeling and they didn't want to push too much because everytime she would do a full run thru she would have to take time off training to recouperate.

tangerine_dream
11-24-2010, 07:03 AM
It's shooting yourself in the foot to not do full run-throughs. If you can't even do your full program in practice then there's no way you'll get through it in competition. Double run-throughs a few weeks before competitions are crucial as well.

VIETgrlTerifa
11-24-2010, 09:07 AM
I remember hearing that Kwan used to do full run-throughs which she got from Frank Carroll. I'm sure that had to have helped her with her consistency, and Kwan usually didn't lose stamina during her performances, even at altitude like in SLC for Nationals or some Skate Americas. Even at the Olympics, she was stronger during the second half of that LP than she was in the first half (where she was just tense).

Coco
11-24-2010, 04:03 PM
Lake Arrowhead is at altitude, isn't it? She was always very well conditioned. I'd love to know what her off-ice regime looked like as a teenager.

Didn't TAT have Sasha do jumpless runthroughs? I'm guessing when people say full runthrough, they mean all choreo and jumps.

I could see how a mix of both kinds of runthroughs would be advantageous.

If I were a skater, I wouldn't feel remotely confidant unless I was regularly completing full run throughs. But I've also never understood how you can do a full run through with 10-20 other skaters on the ice!

gkelly
11-24-2010, 04:14 PM
If I were a skater, I wouldn't feel remotely confidant unless I was regularly completing full run throughs.

Yeah. You have to work up to it. But if you haven't gotten to that point before competition day, it's not magically going to become possible in competition.


But I've also never understood how you can do a full run through with 10-20 other skaters on the ice!

Haha. Lots of bailing out of elements or swerving to rearrange the trajectory, which can take more energy than just doing the program as planned.

But elite skaters often practice on less crowded sessions. And if they're one of the few elite skaters at a local rink, the kids will be more inclined to give way to a skater training for Nationals next week than for each other. But I don't think it's possible to get to an elite level if you never get some chance each week to practice without 20 kids on the ice.

Dragonlady
11-24-2010, 05:36 PM
If I were a skater, I wouldn't feel remotely confidant unless I was regularly completing full run throughs. But I've also never understood how you can do a full run through with 10-20 other skaters on the ice!

Higher level sessions don't have 10 - 20 skaters on the ice. The numbers are strictly controlled for just that reason. And often when skaters are preparing for an event, the other skaters on the session will go to the boards to give them room. Clubs also have sessions for "clear ice run-throughs" for skaters going to competitions which are sometimes called "competition simulations".

aliceanne
11-24-2010, 05:39 PM
Obviously I'm not an elite, but when I train my program I generally seperate it into three sections. I start doing sections in isolation, then move to doing one, rest, one while in the music, then to back to back, then to full programs.

Doing this keeps me from wanting to throw up when I start training them. :shuffle:

I'm an adult recreational skater - I do the same. I learn the sections first and then gradually put them together.

I couldn't imagine going to competition without having done successful full run throughs. It's not only good for your stamina but also your self confidence.

However, I taper off my practices the week before I have to perform. I only skate enough to stay loose and keep my muscle memory fresh. The adrenaline and emotions during a competition take a lot out of you!

tangerine_dream
11-25-2010, 05:34 PM
Lake Arrowhead is at altitude, isn't it? She was always very well conditioned. I'd love to know what her off-ice regime looked like as a teenager.

Didn't TAT have Sasha do jumpless runthroughs? I'm guessing when people say full runthrough, they mean all choreo and jumps.

If I were a skater, I wouldn't feel remotely confidant unless I was regularly completing full run throughs. But I've also never understood how you can do a full run through with 10-20 other skaters on the ice!

A person running a program to music on the overheard speaker has right of way over everyone else, including someone in a lesson. People on high level sessions know this and clear the way.

A full run-through can be without jumps, especially on competition practices.

tangerine_dream
11-25-2010, 05:36 PM
Higher level sessions don't have 10 - 20 skaters on the ice. The numbers are strictly controlled for just that reason. And often when skaters are preparing for an event, the other skaters on the session will go to the boards to give them room. Clubs also have sessions for "clear ice run-throughs" for skaters going to competitions which are sometimes called "competition simulations".

At most good training centers like Arrowhead and Colorado Springs, yes they do. East West, El Segundo, etc also have that many skaters on the ice. I've never seen anyone "go to the boards" at any of the afformentioned rinks. Good skaters know how to look out while training, and how to stay out of the way. When you train together everyday you know a program's patterns by heart even if it's not yours.

Elite skaters don't go hang out by the boards while someone else trains for an event- it's their session too and they know it.