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dinakt
11-21-2010, 06:32 PM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa a

1/ You can think all you want to that Chan does not interpret or skate to his music - but that does not make it a FACT any more than me thinking he DOES a fact. Nor will either of our opinons have an impact on results. However, judges thinking that he does - has an impact on their scores. So if you are absolutely sure that he does not interpret the music - and want to have an impact on the results - become a judge.

2/As with number one - you can complain all you want to about the falls not having enough impact on the scores but here is a little newsflash:

- There are mandatory deductions for falls and they are being applied. Don't think they are high enough? Let someone know - find a way to have a voice with the ISU but that still doesn't make it Chan's fault and therefore brings no truth to Chan is overscored theories.

-You can think all you want to that the PE and SS marks should be affected. But there is no rule or mandatory deduction for falls in these categories. Again not his fault nor unique to him. So that brings it back to being up the judges whether or not they think these categories have been negatively affected. The judges seem to believe that despite the falls that these are still high quality. So again - become a judge who can say otherwise if you want.

I happen to agree with the judges that Chan deserves high marks for these categories as any time I have seen him - other than the 3 seconds of the 150 or 270 second program he spends with his butt on the ice - his skating skills are unbelievably strong and IMO he continues to interpret the themes and music. However, as with you - my opinion has no bearing on the outcome - I guess it just results in less anger in these situations - but more dreading of reading FSU threads whenever he wins with mistakes.

ETA - and this is not a Canadian thing for me - it is a skater quality thing. There are are a few skaters who IMO often deserve to win over others who skate "cleaner" programs due to their superior skating skills. Some others who come to mind are Takahashi, Lambiel, Yuna Kim, Pairs S and S (and I don't even love their skating but I recognize their superiority), Z and S, Davis and White.

It's a long way to climb from the Trash Can to the judging monitor;)
But " interpretation of music" is not such a subjective category as you are making it out to be; it requires reacting to line, phrasing, rhythm, tempi, dynamic changes, mood, and of course there are " intangibles" as well. It actually can be analyzed. Linking to the article on "judged sports" that was posted in GSD earlier, I understand that it is quite difficult to separate so many categories in such a short time, and judges are going by " overall impression", which in Patrick's case is dominated by amazing footwork. So many times it was told about the second mark "It is not Artistic mark anymore, it is different". Now it has categories. Right now SS and TR categories dominate, and others are simply lined up to be close to them. Then why have them?

Marco
11-21-2010, 06:33 PM
I respect Chan's skills and I LOVE Verner, but in all honesty I can't argue with the SS, TR and CH scores for these two. Verner's program is much simpler in comparison and he rests and dances too much in contrast with all the blade work Chan does.

In the free skate, given the falls, I would probably give Verner a 1 point advantage over Chan for both PE and IN, but that would only give Verner 4 more points. Something tells me this crowd will still not be happy. :P And in this scenario I would rather think Verner was underscored instead of Chan was overscored.

piano18
11-21-2010, 07:25 PM
If Chan has so brilliant skills, why he falls so often? Isn't remain upright a skill too?

Skating skills- Edgework :) similar what Marco has said above me.

piano18
11-21-2010, 07:27 PM
I just don't get it. Many people act like Verner is a random middle-level skater, who has no skating skills, no interpretation abilities, no choreography, his jumping technique is so awful and he doesn't know how to land a triple while Chan's jumps are so difficult. Duh.

I don't remember reading this- Where is this displayed?

DELTA
11-21-2010, 07:29 PM
Patrick Chan deserves his scores about as much as Jackie Chan deserves an Oscar.

VIETgrlTerifa
11-21-2010, 07:34 PM
Yeah, but Jackie Chan's falls and bobbles are actually choreographed and intentional. ;) With the way some argue, maybe Patrick's are too.

miki88
11-21-2010, 07:52 PM
This thread is so :watch: worthy!

numbers123
11-21-2010, 07:56 PM
If you read all of the post about Chan there is one thing that everyone agree's on (Chan's skating skills are the best in the world).

Everyone agrees? I am just a dumb fan but does that mean that I have to agree with you or others on EVERYTHING?

luvsasha2
11-21-2010, 08:07 PM
Patrick Chan seems like an arrogant little twit which makes his overscoring that much more annoying.
And I can't believe I'm going to paraphrase Johnny Weir but once he said real sport is when you fall you have to work your way back up, not beat people who were better than you just because you have better reputation than they do.
I love figure skating to death, but continued overscoring of Chan is not going to help the sport any. it already seems like a joke to most people because of crap like this.

Patrick Chan has great skating skills, but I saw him live a couple of years ago and he is seriously not so much better than Abbott, Oda, Kozuka, Verner, etc and especially not Takahashi in the performance department. The guy knows how to sell it even when he messes up, and engages the audience.

blade runner
11-21-2010, 08:07 PM
Everyone agrees? I am just a dumb fan but does that mean that I have to agree with you or others on EVERYTHING?

Ok, I think you get the idea most people agree Chan's skating skills are the best in the world. You don't have to agree. Tell me though who it is you feel is better?

PrincessLeppard
11-21-2010, 08:08 PM
His GOE marks on jumps take into consideration the complicated steps going into and out of jumps, not just "height". It is much more difficult to do the jumps this way and he is rewarded accordingly. This is how the rulebook indicates GOE should be determined. "Big" jumps may be impressive, but that isn't the only criteria.

Maybe he can't handle the difficult entrances into the jumps. It's great to have them if you can pull it off. If you're falling four times a competition, maybe it's time to get rid of those difficult entries. Because you can't handle them.

bek
11-21-2010, 08:17 PM
Maybe he can't handle the difficult entrances into the jumps. It's great to have them if you can pull it off. If you're falling four times a competition, maybe it's time to get rid of those difficult entries. Because you can't handle them.

Exactly. I definetly think choregraphy/transitions deserve to and need to be rewarded, but execution needs to be rewarded as well. Its one thing for me when you have B/S winning over S/P with a small error and a much more complex and intricate program than S/P. For the most part B/S were able to execute that program extremely well and intricate choregraphy/transitions should be rewarded.

But its a whole different thing when you see a skater falling multiple times on their program, that program then is not well executed at all, and why should they be rewarded? And if you have a skater who is AVERAGING four falls a competition, that tells me right there that the skater is doing programs that are way to complex for them. Now the skater can pack in as much difficult as they want, and if they want to roll the dice good for them, but it doesn't mean they should be rewarded for their many falls.

In the end to me the clean jump is more important than the difficult entrance.

Squibble
11-21-2010, 08:21 PM
Maybe he can't handle the difficult entrances into the jumps. It's great to have them if you can pull it off. If you're falling four times a competition, maybe it's time to get rid of those difficult entries. Because you can't handle them.

His falls tend to be on the 4T and 3A, jumps that he does without the difficult entrances. He also fell on footwork at Skate Canada.

Getting rid of the difficult entries on his other triples probably wouldn't do him a whit of good.

bek
11-21-2010, 08:25 PM
His falls tend to be on the 4T and 3A, jumps that he does without the difficult entrances. He also fell on footwork at Skate Canada.

Getting rid of the difficult entries on his other triples probably wouldn't do him a whit of good.

Well he did fall on the 3lutz... But I actually think in Patrick's case it would be better for him to only attempt one quad and one triple axel in the long. It would help him still work on getting both jumps more consistent, but it would also reduce some of the risk.

numbers123
11-21-2010, 08:26 PM
Ok, I think you get the idea most people agree Chan's skating skills are the best in the world. You don't have to agree. Tell me though who it is you feel is better?

Do I have to think that any of the top skaters have to have superior skils to anyone else? Oh, I guess I must have to and must have to choose.