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Dragonlady
11-30-2010, 04:05 PM
But your suggestion wouldn't be met with much support. Clean skating is for pure entertainment, which is what show skating is all about. This is a sport first and entertainment second so there would be a wave of resistance against a rule that discourages skaters from trying to achieve something that's really hard to do in competition.

For most fans of the sport, falls are horrible and detract from their viewing enjoyment. If that's a problem for you I recommend you stick to show skating. For me it doesn't affect my enjoyment; in fact, it adds to the drama of athletic achievement. I watch the sport as a sport, although I realize I am in the minority. Part of the drama and tension comes from seeing a skater attempt something that's really hard for them; that's what keeps me on the edge of my seat.

This also flies in the face of what the skaters have been pushing for, which is why you see higher points for quads and less deduction for underrotation. Skaters want encouragement to push the limits. To skaters, there is no shame in falling on a 3A or quad; but there is shame in downgrading the element by taking out a rotation to make it easy on the skater. To them that's not the foundation of reputable athletics.

That's the rub. I realize competitive skating will lose audience members because most want to see clean skating while the athletes and the sport want to see the limits pushed, even if it means repeated failures. The ISU will battle this conflict well past our time on this earth...

Absolutely. Beautifully said.

purple skates
11-30-2010, 04:19 PM
I agree with the theory that you should be penalized more in the SP. I agree that the drama has gone out of the SP more. Another way to handle is to take your SP mark and multiply it by 1.5-2, which makes each element's importance magnified. LP is worth the same but if you mess up the short program and would be behind by 10, you're now behind by 20, which can put you out of reach.

But your suggestion wouldn't be met with much support. Clean skating is for pure entertainment, which is what show skating is all about. This is a sport first and entertainment second so there would be a wave of resistance against a rule that discourages skaters from trying to achieve something that's really hard to do in competition.

For most fans of the sport, falls are horrible and detract from their viewing enjoyment. If that's a problem for you I recommend you stick to show skating. For me it doesn't affect my enjoyment; in fact, it adds to the drama of athletic achievement. I watch the sport as a sport, although I realize I am in the minority. Part of the drama and tension comes from seeing a skater attempt something that's really hard for them; that's what keeps me on the edge of my seat.

This also flies in the face of what the skaters have been pushing for, which is why you see higher points for quads and less deduction for underrotation. Skaters want encouragement to push the limits. To skaters, there is no shame in falling on a 3A or quad; but there is shame in downgrading the element by taking out a rotation to make it easy on the skater. To them that's not the foundation of reputable athletics.

That's the rub. I realize competitive skating will lose audience members because most want to see clean skating while the athletes and the sport want to see the limits pushed, even if it means repeated failures. The ISU will battle this conflict well past our time on this earth...

Then why not get rid of the short program all together? If all you are interested in is seeing skaters falling all over the place, doing elements they haven't mastered, then the short program and its mastery of required elements becomes irrelevant.

I have a question. Are you or have you been a skater? I freely admit that I am not, nor have I ever been, an elite, but I do compete. Competitors don't want to put out subpar performances and it appears from your fourth paragraph that you believe that they would prefer to skate subpar programs in order to up the technical ante. I don't believe this to be a true goal of skaters. While it is true that skaters will put in insecure elements, especially at the beginning of a season, in hopes of improvement throughout the year, they should also be prepared for some consequences if those elements aren't working well for them.

Also, your assertion that I should stick to watching show skating is an insult that I do not appreciate. High quality competitive skating should be both athletic and enjoyable to watch. That's what makes champions champions - those that fall all over the place should not be a champion. YMMV, of course.

PUNKPRINCESS
11-30-2010, 04:52 PM
Oh, by the way, I apologize for my racism and I stand corrected.

Rock2
11-30-2010, 09:39 PM
Then why not get rid of the short program all together? If all you are interested in is seeing skaters falling all over the place, doing elements they haven't mastered, then the short program and its mastery of required elements becomes irrelevant.

It's not my goal, to hope for and take interest in falling. I just accept it as a byproduct of trying to push yourself to achieve. So I don't get hung up on it.

Clearly I'm in the minority with this perspective.

professordeb
11-30-2010, 10:13 PM
It's not my goal, to hope for and take interest in falling. I just accept it as a byproduct of trying to push yourself to achieve. So I don't get hung up on it.

Clearly I'm in the minority with this perspective.

Well then I'm also in the minority because I think what you said made a lot of sense and I agree with it.

gkelly
11-30-2010, 10:16 PM
There are all sorts of mistakes skaters can make in their programs. Falling is not necessarily the worst, or even the least aesthetically pleasing.

JanetB
11-30-2010, 11:37 PM
There are all sorts of mistakes skaters can make in their programs. Falling is not necessarily the worst, or even the least aesthetically pleasing.

Yes I find hip trust to be much less aesthetically pleasing.

heo-wikki
11-30-2010, 11:39 PM
Maybe. Maybe not. I would like to believe you're right. I don't want to turn this into a race thread and I resisted naming it as an issue for awhile. But I do find it challenging to figure out why so many Chan critics keep calling him "arrogant," etc. for comments that seem fairly benign to me, and that are mostly taken out of context. I'll be happy to be proven wrong about this, but I suspect that some version of the "Asian guys should be nice" is playing a role somewhere in the continued complaints about his supposed "attitude." :rolleyes: Admittedly, I may be biased, my PhD concentration involves race and gender studies, and so perhaps I'm looking for issues that don't exist. But mostly this thread confirms my suspicion. :shuffle:

Please explain your last sentence. Where was his race mentioned in relation to his alleged overscoring by anyone other than you?

I would hope someone obtaining a PhD in race and gender studies would be beyond biases. I guess I'm a dreamer.

bek
12-01-2010, 12:55 AM
The fact that it is a competition is why landing the jumps should be important. In every sport delivering the goods on game day is the difference between winning and losing. My issue with the argument falls don't matter is it argues delivering doesn't matter at all.

kosjenka
12-01-2010, 10:29 AM
My dislike of Chan's public demeanor has nothing to do with him being Canadian or Asian.
I was able to find a question answered by Johnny Weir about the situation between Patrick and Brian where, in my opinion - Patrick was disrespectful & arrogant.


Q: Johnny, I can't wait for the season to begin because I'm having Johnny withdraws right now. You deserved to be at the World Championships. U.S. Figure Skating robbed fans of an awesome performance by not naming you to the team. My question is about Patrick Chan and Brian Joubert. Are you familiar with their war of words? I think Patrick pretty much said that Brian's programs are void of actual choreography so he has to have the quad. If so, who do you agree with?

A: I was at the World Championships and was made aware of their little battle in the press. Brian has always had a very direct way of voicing his opinion through the years and he has had his share of criticism for it. What struck me was that a young boy, only in his second championship wanted to throw down with one of the mainstays of the podium at the World Championships. That would have been like me attacking Yagudin in my first season on the Grand Prix. I found it a bit disrespectful. I believe everyone has a right to their opinion but show it in the correct way. I may not be one to talk about this since my mouth has run away with me from time to time, but I respect every skater who can get out there and show their heart and soul when they compete and in his way, Brian Joubert does that, as does Patrick Chan. I think mutual respect is necessary for all athletes.0

In mu opinion, Johnny pointed out the important thing here about Patrick - that he was relativly new on the senior world scene & acted as if he came and conquered everybody, when in fact - he has not.
Not even up this day.

This is what made me dislike Chan.
It is somewhat annoying that he again kept old program, but that is more because I think that he does have great skills and could show more progress as a skater with new challenges.
I think the negativity forwards Chan in this case is coming from the fact he has behaved and the fact that he fell several times in a performance and received high marks for Performance.
First part is up to him, but the marks are not.

Marco
12-01-2010, 02:30 PM
Then why not get rid of the short program all together? If all you are interested in is seeing skaters falling all over the place, doing elements they haven't mastered, then the short program and its mastery of required elements becomes irrelevant.

I supported having big GOEs so quality and cleanliness can be further reflected. What the ISU did (as a response to Kim winning by a huge margin and Lysacek beating Plushenko based on quality) was a huge step backwards. When you increase the value of the quad and reduce the penalty for failing, aren't you just encouraging skaters to go for it?

The GPs take place at the first half of the season and skaters tend to want to try new elements at these comps even if they are only semi-ready and are not at their best. Good for skaters who are committed and not afraid to fail, like Chan and Asada. The attempts will pay off later this season. (e.g. don't you already feel, forgetting historic stats for a second, that Chan is more likely to land the quad at Worlds than Rippon?) Unless they are injured like Kostner was, I don't prefer the skaters to significantly scale down on the jumps. No one enters the season aiming just to win / go clean at a GP. They aim to pace themselves through the season, and gradually perfect their programs and performances, hoping to peak at Worlds. They do that either by adding the big tricks later on (like Ando), or adding choreography later on (like Nagasu). Chan is obviously much more ambitious doing both at the same time.

With all the trash talk about Chan and his falls he did manage to land 2 quads out of 4 tries and both of them were great. And this is his first healthy season with the quad in both his sp and lp, and if you all remember the quadsters saying - adding the quad changes everything. And I think everyone will have to agree his programs are certainly already much more difficult than what Plushenko, Joubert and / or Stojko had ever had to offer.

VIETgrlTerifa
12-01-2010, 02:34 PM
I don't get what your post has to do with SPs though. The purpose of the SP was to always to compare skaters executing similar elements to judge their mastery of their elements and how well they execute them. Of course with COP "getting rid" of comparative judging, I'm finding it harder to find a reason to have a SP which serves no real purpose other than simply having two nights of competition.

Dragonlady
12-01-2010, 03:35 PM
With all the trash talk about Chan and his falls he did manage to land 2 quads out of 4 tries and both of them were great. And this is his first healthy season with the quad in both his sp and lp, and if you all remember the quadsters saying - adding the quad changes everything. And I think everyone will have to agree his programs are certainly already much more difficult than what Plushenko, Joubert and / or Stojko had ever had to offer.

Patrick said in an interview that he didn't understand before that adding the quad changes everything and said he now understands and has new respect for those doing the quad.

I get the impression that he's really embarassed about the falls and wants to get back on track as quickly as possible.

gkelly
12-01-2010, 03:59 PM
I don't get what your post has to do with SPs though. The purpose of the SP was to always to compare skaters executing similar elements to judge their mastery of their elements and how well they execute them.

But the SP also always gave skaters a choice of at least one of the jumps in the combination, more recently it gave a choice of the solo jump, and even more recently still a choice of whether to do a double or triple for the solo axel jump (just as of this year for ladies).

So the difficulty of the jump elements has always varied to some extent -- by quite a lot even as 2004ish when 6.0 judging was still in use.

Judges did always take attempted difficulty into account in establishing base marks for the short program, before applying any mandatory deductions.

You don't think it mattered that Linda Fratianne, for example, was doing triples in her SP when most others were doing doubles?

Of course, the difficulty of the elements was never the only determinant of the base mark. But it was a variable. Fall on a triple was worth more than a fall on a double. By today's standard, fall on a quad is worth more than fall on a triple.

Whether fall on the harder jump should be worth more than successful execution of an easier jump that meets the requirements is debatable. There will always be a question of How much easier? and How well was it executed?

Not to mention the other 6 or 7 elements in the program and the in-betweens and presentation.


Of course with COP "getting rid" of comparative judging, I'm finding it harder to find a reason to have a SP which serves no real purpose other than simply having two nights of competition.

The SP and the way it's judged hasn't changed that much with the new system. What I see as a bigger change is that the free program is now more like a longer technical program with more element specified element slots.

Rock2
12-01-2010, 04:07 PM
Patrick said in an interview that he didn't understand before that adding the quad changes everything and said he now understands and has new respect for those doing the quad.

I get the impression that he's really embarassed about the falls and wants to get back on track as quickly as possible.

Agreed.
Look at Brezina. Same boat although some injuries have played a factor. Two years of clean skating and then he adds the quad and POOF it looks like he forgot how to skate. I suspect that even when he's back in action his consistency won't be fully there for a season or two, if at all.