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Rock2
11-30-2010, 04:20 AM
Your missing my point. Rock said "he landed every jump before" But I'm pointing out the jumps aren't consistent. I don't expect his quad to be that consistent now, but STILL. Who determines whether a skater can do a jump or not anyways, practices?

Fortunately that's not the issue as I just clarified in my last post.

Based on the rulebook you can theoretically fall 10 times in a program and your PCS marks cannot be affected. I think your complaint is with the ISU for their crappy rulebook and not with the judges, who are doing their job correctly.

Rock2
11-30-2010, 04:46 AM
IF it was just the quad he'd only be falling on the quad. Its not like Patrick was uber consistent pre quad. And yes its the beginning of the season, and I wouldn't be nearly as critical of Patrick if his scores for those type of skates resembled the scores Asada got at TEB. But that's not whats happening.

I'd love to find the key to unlock the part of your mind that doesn't yet understand that there's a whole world of other factors that impact your score other than falls. Many more. That seems to be all you're looking at to form your opinion.

I know you understand that women's and men's skating are different in terms of technical ability, but Mao's jumping and spinning content were both way easier than Patrick's plan. Also Mao took underrotation hits in addition to massive GOE hits on two of her jumps.

And if you're up for the 5 paragraphs I can type on this I can outline in mind numbing detail why Mao's PCS are at least a full point behind Patrick's on average. I doubt there's an audience for that here.

And the low 70s score for a pitiful skate is not without precedent. Lambiel...2007 WC SP. 3A/fall, 3T/2T combo and a 3Z. Comparable to Phaneuf's SP at TEB. He got 72 pts she got 50. Scandalous, you might say! But I guess I've come to realize that by the rulebook if you have enough other talents and skills, sometimes you can get away with falling and (worse) downgrading your jumps, and chock up a palatable score.

gkelly
11-30-2010, 04:46 AM
I am just re-reading Kurt Browning's book Forcing the Edge and am reminded of some of the details of his skates back when we didn't see as many of the international competitions. ...

Just for an interesting comparison - he writes of several skates early in the season - and even as late as Nationals - where his jumps aren't so solid.... And before COP that would have been with other elements that were less demanding and in a time when a "clean" program was more important.

Of course Browning during the 6.0 era had more content between the jumps than most skaters have today. And judges often did give him credit for it and he would medal or win with messy performances against skaters who stood up on their jumps but didn't have nearly as much else in their favor.


there are some skaters whose best jump is not the axel - Stephane Lambiel for one - and another skater - I can't remember who - who could do quads but not TAs - said it was like jumping off a cliff. (Barna?)

Yeah, Barna.



Maybe I'll just quote the ISU rulebook to help things along.

PERFORMANCE
Performance is the involvement of the Skater/Pair physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.
EXECUTION
Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement in Pair Skating.

In evaluating the Performance/Execution, the following must be considered:
Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement;
Carriage;
Style and individuality/personality;
Clarity of movement;
Variety and contrast

If that's not clear enough, I'll point out this has nothing to do with jumping. It's all about how you move on the ice

Thanks for the reminder. :)


So how can falls affect the program? Here's what the judges are allowed to do:

- falls -1.0 for every fall (in Pair Skating -1.0 for a fall of one partner and -2.0 for a fall of both partners); for interpretation of this Rule, a fall is defined as loss of control by a Skater with the result that the majority of his/her own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm;
- deductions will be applied for interruption to the program: -1.0 for 11 - 20 seconds interruption, -2.0 for 21 - 30 seconds interruption etc.


So there is a clear cut rule on how much judges can deduct for falls...and these can only be applied through GOE or the interruption mark which is the deduction you see after TES and PCS are shown.

The judges do not take the mandatory fall or interruption deductions -- those are taken by the technical panel. The referee is responsible for the interruption deductions.

Judges do reflect falls on elements via the GOEs.

As you point out, there's no rule that requires or encourages judges to reflect falls in any of the program components.

However, there's also no rule that says judges must not reflect falls in the program components. If a judge really thinks that the criteria for one or more of the components were negatively affected by the fall, they might well give lower scores for those components than they would have without the fall. But it's at their discretion, not a requirement.

The Accordion
11-30-2010, 04:52 AM
Of course Browning during the 6.0 era had more content between the jumps than most skaters have today. And judges often did give him credit for it and he would medal or win with messy performances against skaters who stood up on their jumps but didn't have nearly as much else in their favor.



Yeah, Barna.




Thanks for the Barna confirmation! :)

And yeah - I know KB was ahead of his time with the in betweens etc. pre COP. I guess it is possibly one of the reasons he had trouble earlier on in the season?

But if so - that even further proves my point and comparison. Those insisting that Chan either has to lessen the in-between difficulty or choose easier jumps may be jumping the gun a bit.

ks1227
11-30-2010, 05:00 AM
And to the creator of this thread: do you have a deathwish?? You might as well have started a thread entitled "Abortion is for pussies!!"
I was very conscious of what I was doing and I don't regret it a bit! ;)

ks1227
11-30-2010, 05:12 AM
Maybe I'll just quote the ISU rulebook to help things along.
...
All, I appreciate that you don't want the rules to be this way. You may WANT Chan to be deducted in PCS for his falls but he can't be. It's not allowed within the marking system.

Fine if you can't be convinced, but don't say Chan was overscored. What you should be saying is the judging system should be changed for the sake of downgrading the scores of the skaters you don't like.
There you go again, reporting facts. Don't you know that neither the rulebook nor the protocols are relevant for the Chan uber-critics? The only thing that matters is that "he fell four times, OMG OMG OMG!" ;)

purple skates
11-30-2010, 05:16 AM
Maybe I'll just quote the ISU rulebook to help things along.

PERFORMANCE
Performance is the involvement of the Skater/Pair physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.
EXECUTION
Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement in Pair Skating.

In evaluating the Performance/Execution, the following must be considered:
Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement;
Carriage;
Style and individuality/personality;
Clarity of movement;
Variety and contrast

If that's not clear enough, I'll point out this has nothing to do with jumping. It's all about how you move on the ice

So how can falls affect the program? Here's what the judges are allowed to do:

- falls -1.0 for every fall (in Pair Skating -1.0 for a fall of one partner and -2.0 for a fall of both partners); for interpretation of this Rule, a fall is defined as loss of control by a Skater with the result that the majority of his/her own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm;
- deductions will be applied for interruption to the program: -1.0 for 11 - 20 seconds interruption, -2.0 for 21 - 30 seconds interruption etc.


So there is a clear cut rule on how much judges can deduct for falls...and these can only be applied through GOE or the interruption mark which is the deduction you see after TES and PCS are shown.

All, I appreciate that you don't want the rules to be this way. You may WANT Chan to be deducted in PCS for his falls but he can't be. It's not allowed within the marking system.

Fine if you can't be convinced, but don't say Chan was overscored. What you should be saying is the judging system should be changed for the sake of downgrading the scores of the skaters you don't like.

Did you ever stop and think that maybe the rule book needs to be changed?

gkelly
11-30-2010, 05:43 AM
Did you ever stop and think that maybe the rule book needs to be changed?

What would you change it to?

ks1227
11-30-2010, 05:54 AM
Do you really think so? I disagree. His attitude is what I don't like about him. His race has nothing to do with it.
Maybe. Maybe not. I would like to believe you're right. I don't want to turn this into a race thread and I resisted naming it as an issue for awhile. But I do find it challenging to figure out why so many Chan critics keep calling him "arrogant," etc. for comments that seem fairly benign to me, and that are mostly taken out of context. I'll be happy to be proven wrong about this, but I suspect that some version of the "Asian guys should be nice" is playing a role somewhere in the continued complaints about his supposed "attitude." :rolleyes: Admittedly, I may be biased, my PhD concentration involves race and gender studies, and so perhaps I'm looking for issues that don't exist. But mostly this thread confirms my suspicion. :shuffle:

bek
11-30-2010, 06:06 AM
Well Rock, I'd argue "percision in delivery" is affected by falls. I'd also suggest jumps are part of the program and need to be evaluated as such.` (Its part of the whole program) I'd also suggest movement is affected by falls. If your falling on your butt that's not exactly excellent "clarity of movement."

And I'd also say I think the rule book needs to be ammended to make it more clearly. Not because I think "skating clean is the only thing that matters" I'd actually let Daisuke win the Olympics if it was up to me. I can handle one fall. But because delivering on game day has to matter. I can't stand seeing messy programs rewarded, and I'm convinced that allowing skaters to get by with multiple falls and win will destroy this sport.

And for the record its not just about "punishing Patrick" I feel that way about any skater getting away with messy programs. Lambiels' scores in the last quad have upset me. I was angry about Kim's P/E scores versus Asadas at Worlds.

I feel currently the system is allowing set scores for half! of the actual marks and I think its wrong. I strongly feel P/E needs to factor into affect falls and other mess ups because how the skater actual delivers on Game day has to matter.

VIETgrlTerifa
11-30-2010, 06:21 AM
Maybe. Maybe not. I would like to believe you're right. I don't want to turn this into a race thread and I resisted naming it as an issue for awhile. But I do find it challenging to figure out why so many Chan critics keep calling him "arrogant," etc. for comments that seem fairly benign to me, and that are mostly taken out of context. I'll be happy to be proven wrong about this, but I suspect that some version of the "Asian guys should be nice" is playing a role somewhere in the continued complaints about his supposed "attitude." :rolleyes: Admittedly, I may be biased, my PhD concentration involves race and gender studies, and so perhaps I'm looking for issues that don't exist. But mostly this thread confirms my suspicion. :shuffle:

How do you explain the responses to Plushenko and Joubert's comments? Or Stoijko's? Or are you arguing that those two skaters are simply more controversial than Patrick Chan? Remember that seemingly never-ending back and forth between Evan and Johnny. Also, I remember Michael Weiss (who I heard is a sweetheart in real life) getting criticized during his competitive days for having an air of arrogance surrounding him.

Also, for someone getting their PhD, I'm sure you're looking beyond this thread for validation for your suspicions that Chan's critics are influenced by his race when they criticize him for being arrogant. Comments and statements that may be benign to you may not be to others. Also, you can't ignore other factors that may play into his critics' interpretation of his attitude...maybe it's his age (which allow his critics to use immaturity as an excuse) or maybe it's him being Canadian (a nation that has a reputation for having a nice citizenry for some) that may make people be a little more critical of Chan. Or maybe it's the supposed "Chanflation" that some figure skating fans see that influence them to latch on to things and read subtext when there may not be any in order paint him in a less than complimentary light. Or maybe they truly feel he is arrogant and consistently are unattracted to others who exhibit similar perceived behavior.

As someone who is Asian, I'm not familiar with the notion that "Asian guys should be nice" but I am familiar with the condescending and inherently racist model minority status which some use to apply to all Asians (in that they are much more hard-working, smarter, and don't cause trouble or make a fuss).

purple skates
11-30-2010, 02:47 PM
What would you change it to?

I would like to see a change where required elements in the short program are truly required elements. As it is right now, the short program is simply a shorter version of the long program, and that wasn't the original intention. There should be higher penalties for missing elements. I don't care if quads are not performed in a short program - in the short program skaters should do whatever element they can perform well 99% of the time. If that's only a 2A or a 3T, so be it.

I don't think that giving zero points for a fall on a required short program element is unreasonable.

CynicElle
11-30-2010, 03:04 PM
And actually, I find it interesting that a lot of fans get bent out of shape about a few media-prompted comments made by an Asian-Canadian male skater that probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow if said by a "white" Russian, French or American male skater. There, I said it. :shuffle:

That big rumble you just heard? It was all the Lysacek, Plushenko, Joubert, Weiss, Stojko, Weir, etc. fans falling out of their chairs from laughter.

Rock2
11-30-2010, 03:29 PM
Did you ever stop and think that maybe the rule book needs to be changed?

Of course! And that's a whole separate discussion, which I'm happy to have at any time.

The point here is that the complaint is that Judges/Tech panel are overscoring Chan. The answer to that concern according to the rule book is that the marks are fair.

As I did recommend in one of my recent posts, any complaining should go to the ISU to change the rulebook, not to the Tech/Judging panel for their incorrect scoring.

So once we get people comfortable with the fact that the rulebook is correctly applied we can move on to a bigger discussion about the judging system which I agree will need pretty constant tweaking. Would be happy to hear any suggestions in that regard in a separate thread.

Rock2
11-30-2010, 03:41 PM
I don't think that giving zero points for a fall on a required short program element is unreasonable.

I agree with the theory that you should be penalized more in the SP. I agree that the drama has gone out of the SP more. Another way to handle is to take your SP mark and multiply it by 1.5-2, which makes each element's importance magnified. LP is worth the same but if you mess up the short program and would be behind by 10, you're now behind by 20, which can put you out of reach.

But your suggestion wouldn't be met with much support. Clean skating is for pure entertainment, which is what show skating is all about. This is a sport first and entertainment second so there would be a wave of resistance against a rule that discourages skaters from trying to achieve something that's really hard to do in competition.

For most fans of the sport, falls are horrible and detract from their viewing enjoyment. If that's a problem for you I recommend you stick to show skating. For me it doesn't affect my enjoyment; in fact, it adds to the drama of athletic achievement. I watch the sport as a sport, although I realize I am in the minority. Part of the drama and tension comes from seeing a skater attempt something that's really hard for them; that's what keeps me on the edge of my seat.

This also flies in the face of what the skaters have been pushing for, which is why you see higher points for quads and less deduction for underrotation. Skaters want encouragement to push the limits. To skaters, there is no shame in falling on a 3A or quad; but there is shame in downgrading the element by taking out a rotation to make it easy on the skater. To them that's not the foundation of reputable athletics.

That's the rub. I realize competitive skating will lose audience members because most want to see clean skating while the athletes and the sport want to see the limits pushed, even if it means repeated failures. The ISU will battle this conflict well past our time on this earth...