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Rock2
11-30-2010, 01:15 AM
You are quite right. Many people don't know that much about figure skating rules.They just think people who didn't fall should get the highest point,even they sucked on other elements or step out the jumps.It's a pity.

That's the leading edge of the problem.

All I would say is that, for the people who claim he is overscored, can you please give some specific reasons why. Not that many people make a case. They just complain.

e.g. he gets 8s for skating skills and here are the reasons why I think that's too high......

And to the creator of this thread: do you have a deathwish?? You might as well have started a thread entitled "Abortion is for pussies!!"

Rock2
11-30-2010, 01:23 AM
I'm glad someone finally mentioned Takahashi in this conversation. I think the problem a lot of people have is that when you fall 3-4 times, it mars the program and the performance. That isn't taking away his actual skating ability. I do actually understand why, based on the system, Chan is getting the marks he is getting. However, if it is true that judges are being written up for varying their PCS marks by more than 1 point, that's the real explanation. I think if that was not the case, his PE and possibly IN marks might be lower. If it is the case, then the judges have to mark his PE within 1 point of the other marks and that makes sense. I just wish judges were able to vary their points more in the case of a skater with fantastic transitions and skating skill bombing or the in case of someone with limited skating skills, but amazing interpretation.

I agree. The fact that all the PCS are within a point is an overall problem with skating but not related to Chan.
Apparently there was some study done in the US where they changed the order the PCS was assigned. e.g. Start with CH mark and then go from there. It seems they concluded the marks came out different. The hypothesis was that the first mark ended up being the basemark for all PCS. So in this system if you have strong SS you get high PCS overall since that is the first mark assigned. Crazy huh?

As for Patrick, if memory serves the rulebook I believe states there is no downward adjustment of any PCS if you have multiple falls unless you are attempting jumps you really can't do. Patrick has landed all jumps in competition so he would get no additional downgrades for a number of falls.

Also, a big component of the IN mark is how well you use/accent every note. Patrick has NO dead air in his program, no unused note. Plus he incorporates his whole body into the program interpretation. Sheer performance ability counts much much less and only if it's appropriate for the music.
The problem is that you can buy most of your CH and IN mark. Not fair for countries just developing their skaters and with less resources.

bek
11-30-2010, 01:24 AM
That's the leading edge of the problem.

All I would say is that, for the people who claim he is overscored, can you please give some specific reasons why. Not that many people make a case. They just complain.


So is Nicolai Morozov and Michael Weiss uneducated then Rock, since they think that Patrick was overscored. Let me try this one, I think that Performance/Execution should mean Performance and Execution. And I don't think a program can be considered well executed if its accompanied by 3 falls. 7/8s for P/E with falls is WAY to much as far as I'm concerned.

And I don't need to be more educated to feel this way, because there's nothing anyone's going to say to convince me.


I believe states there is no downward adjustment of any PCS if you have multiple falls unless you are attempting jumps you really can't do

I'd like to see that rule, and I'd also point out Patrick's triple axel is extremely inconsistent, (He's 1/3 on it so far and only 1/2 for his quad.

heo-wikki
11-30-2010, 01:41 AM
And actually, I find it interesting that a lot of fans get bent out of shape about a few media-prompted comments made by an Asian-Canadian male skater that probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow if said by a "white" Russian, French or American male skater. There, I said it. :shuffle:

I'll say this, BS! Pulling the race or the homophobia card seems to be the norm on this site (others, too) when someone disagrees with one's point of view.

IMHO, do you honestly think that is the reason for the dislike of his comments? So that means that the only people on this site that like Kwan, Yuna, etc are Asian. That only non-"white" people complained about Plushy, Evan, Johnny, Joubert, etc's comments? I say BS!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

vodkashot
11-30-2010, 01:54 AM
I'll say this, BS! Pulling the race or the homophobia card seems to be the norm on this site (others, too) when someone disagrees with one's point of view.

IMHO, do you honestly think that is the reason for the dislike of his comments? So that means that the only people on this site that like Kwan, Yuna, etc are Asian. That only non-"white" people complained about Plushy, Evan, Johnny, Joubert, etc's comments? I say BS!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:


ITA. Next thing we'll know, Chan's critics will probably be accused of being jealous of him....:slinkaway

ks777
11-30-2010, 01:58 AM
And actually, I find it interesting that a lot of fans get bent out of shape about a few media-prompted comments made by an Asian-Canadian male skater that probably wouldn't raise an eyebrow if said by a "white" Russian, French or American male skater. There, I said it. :shuffle:



:violin: Do you really think so? I disagree. His attitude is what I don't like about him. His race has nothing to do with it.

RockTheTassel
11-30-2010, 02:18 AM
(But I do have to say that things always get mis-reported. I don't think he criticized Takahashi for not having a quad in his short. I think he was just surprised, and said so when he was asked about it).

MTE. I agree that Patrick has had his :rolleyes: moments, but I think the criticism of some of his remarks is unfair. I couldn't believe the outrage over his comment about Daisuke not having a quad in his SP. How does that qualify as bashing another skater? That remark could be taken several different ways, even a flattering way. It's hard for me to take his critics seriously when they get bent out of shape over something like that. Unless it's clear that what Patrick says is mean-spirited, don't call him out on it so harshly.

heo-wikki
11-30-2010, 02:19 AM
ITA. Next thing we'll know, Chan's critics will probably be accused of being jealous of him....:slinkaway

Haha. No, next we will only be able to make non-positive statements about people who are of the same race, sexuality, sex, nationality, political affiliation, weight, hair color, shoe size, religion, socio-economic status, educational level, etc. as we.

Are there any short, fat, white, gay, graying, American, male skaters? Whom ever he is sucks. There, I said it. :lol:

Ozzisk8tr
11-30-2010, 02:19 AM
So is Nicolai Morozov and Michael Weiss uneducated then Rock, since they think that Patrick was overscored. Let me try this one, I think that Performance/Execution should mean Performance and Execution. And I don't think a program can be considered well executed if its accompanied by 3 falls. 7/8s for P/E with falls is WAY to much as far as I'm concerned.

And I don't need to be more educated to feel this way, because there's nothing anyone's going to say to convince me.



I'd like to see that rule, and I'd also point out Patrick's triple axel is extremely inconsistent, (He's 1/3 on it so far and only 1/2 for his quad.

With all due respect, I think even if you were more educated and saw that written in a rule book you would still disagree. Also, he's only just added the quad this year. I don't think saying "He's only landed it 1/2 the times he's attempted it is really very valid when he's only competed twice with it.

bek
11-30-2010, 02:25 AM
With all due respect, I think even if you were more educated and saw that written in a rule book you would still disagree. Also, he's only just added the quad this year. I don't think saying "He's only landed it 1/2 the times he's attempted it is really very valid when he's only competed twice with it.

Your missing my point. Rock said "he landed every jump before" But I'm pointing out the jumps aren't consistent. I don't expect his quad to be that consistent now, but STILL. Who determines whether a skater can do a jump or not anyways, practices? Past competitions. Because they did it once? I mean you could have a skater who at one point in time was landing a jump consistently but do to injury or whatever the jump isn't currently there, look at Daisuke's quadtoe last year. It was pretty clear at the Olympics, Daisuke's quad attempt was a "hail mary."

I don't think people should be judged on reputation for P/E in terms of jump consistency. I think they should as much as possible judged on their skates. If someone falls once, and everything else is okay thats one thing, but if someone falls multiple times, I'm sorry the execution isn't currently very good. And I could point out considering Patrick has NEVER done 2 clean triple axels in his long internationally, its perfectly fair to question the wisdom of him doing 2 triple axels in his long.

And you better believe I currently disagree with the rules. To me if the current rules justify 7 and 8s for messy skates on P/E the current rules need to be changed. Otherwise lets just call it figure falling.

purple skates
11-30-2010, 03:20 AM
As for Patrick, if memory serves the rulebook I believe states there is no downward adjustment of any PCS if you have multiple falls unless you are attempting jumps you really can't do. Patrick has landed all jumps in competition so he would get no additional downgrades for a number of falls.

If you are falling multiple times on jumps, in multiple segments/competitons, then obviously you are attempting jumps that you really can't do. Or you are attempting jumps that you can do, but with transitions/content within your program that make them highy unreliable. Either way, your performance marks (in addition to your technical marks) should be affected. Jumps are still (or should still be) an important part of figure skating.

The Accordion
11-30-2010, 03:31 AM
If you are falling multiple times on jumps, in multiple segments/competitons, then obviously you are attempting jumps that you really can't do. Or you are attempting jumps that you can do, but with transitions/content within your program that make them highy unreliable. Either way, your performance marks (in addition to your technical marks) should be affected. Jumps are still (or should still be) an important part of figure skating.

I am just re-reading Kurt Browning's book Forcing the Edge and am reminded of some of the details of his skates back when we didn't see as many of the international competitions. (and truthfully - even if I had - I don't have the court stenographer's memory that many here do)

Just for an interesting comparison - he writes of several skates early in the season - and even as late as Nationals - where his jumps aren't so solid. There were several left out jumps, falls on triple axels, wobbles on triple triple combinations and 2 footed / incomplete quads. And before COP that would have been with other elements that were less demanding and in a time when a "clean" program was more important. ETA - these are during the seasons he won World's

A few things to remember are
1/ It is early in the season - relatively speaking - a season where skaters try to peak for World's
2/ It is the first season Patrick has competed with a quad.
3/ In the big scheme of things - he hasn't had 2 triple axels or even the axel in his repertoire all that long. And even if he had - there are some skaters whose best jump is not the axel - Stephane Lambiel for one - and another skater - I can't remember who - who could do quads but not TAs - said it was like jumping off a cliff. (Barna?)

It may well be the case that he will have to water down the content somewhat in his program to be able to handle the jumps - but it may also just be that he is just part way through the season with a new jump.

ETA - Before there are a million - "BUT HE IS OVERMARKED" responses-- the point of my post - is not to justify his scores -but to respond to the suggestion that he either can't do the jumps or needs to make the connecting steps easier.

bek
11-30-2010, 03:44 AM
IF it was just the quad he'd only be falling on the quad. Its not like Patrick was uber consistent pre quad. And yes its the beginning of the season, and I wouldn't be nearly as critical of Patrick if his scores for those type of skates resembled the scores Asada got at TEB. But that's not whats happening.

purple skates
11-30-2010, 03:48 AM
I am just re-reading Kurt Browning's book Forcing the Edge and am reminded of some of the details of his skates back when we didn't see as many of the international competitions. (and truthfully - even if I had - I don't have the court stenographer's memory that many here do)

Just for an interesting comparison - he writes of several skates early in the season - and even as late as Nationals - where his jumps aren't so solid. There were several left out jumps, falls on triple axels, wobbles on triple triple combinations and 2 footed / incomplete quads. And before COP that would have been with other elements that were less demanding and in a time when a "clean" program was more important.

A couple things to remember are
1/ It is early in the season - relatively speaking - a season where skaters try to peak for World's
2/ It is the first season Patrick has competed with a quad.
3/ In the big scheme of things - he hasn't had 2 triple axels or even in the axel in his repertoire all that long. And even if he had - there are some skaters whose best jump is not the axel - Stephane Lambiel for one - and another skater - I can't remember who - who could do quads but not TAs - said it was like jumping off a cliff. (Barna?)

It may well be the case that he will have to water down the content somewhat in his program to be able to handle the jumps - but it may also just be that he is just part way through the season with a new jump.

I am sure that this is true. With the talent that Chan has, if he keeps it up I expect him to be someone who is remembered for decades. However, right now is isn't all there yet.

Rock2
11-30-2010, 04:15 AM
Maybe I'll just quote the ISU rulebook to help things along.

PERFORMANCE
Performance is the involvement of the Skater/Pair physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.
EXECUTION
Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement in Pair Skating.

In evaluating the Performance/Execution, the following must be considered:
Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement;
Carriage;
Style and individuality/personality;
Clarity of movement;
Variety and contrast

If that's not clear enough, I'll point out this has nothing to do with jumping. It's all about how you move on the ice

So how can falls affect the program? Here's what the judges are allowed to do:

- falls -1.0 for every fall (in Pair Skating -1.0 for a fall of one partner and -2.0 for a fall of both partners); for interpretation of this Rule, a fall is defined as loss of control by a Skater with the result that the majority of his/her own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm;
- deductions will be applied for interruption to the program: -1.0 for 11 - 20 seconds interruption, -2.0 for 21 - 30 seconds interruption etc.


So there is a clear cut rule on how much judges can deduct for falls...and these can only be applied through GOE or the interruption mark which is the deduction you see after TES and PCS are shown.

All, I appreciate that you don't want the rules to be this way. You may WANT Chan to be deducted in PCS for his falls but he can't be. It's not allowed within the marking system.

Fine if you can't be convinced, but don't say Chan was overscored. What you should be saying is the judging system should be changed for the sake of downgrading the scores of the skaters you don't like.