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Allen
11-25-2010, 11:32 PM
Chan's skating is sublime. I recognize though, that it is tougher for casual fans to really get his absolute wow factor, that is until one can experience him skating live, in person and compare him to his competition, trust me, youíll get it then, esp., if you know anything about quality skating. There are certain skaterís that must be seen in the rink environment to best appreciate their special unique skating skills, some skaterís for a variety of reasons, simply do not translate properly, when viewing them on TV, or via a computer screen

Yes, Chan's skating is sublime, but here we go again with the whole "if you don't think Chan deserves his score then you don't understand skating and/or are only a casual fan." :rolleyes:

Judy
11-26-2010, 01:24 AM
I think he deserves the marks and I still think that people don't understand the new system .. that's what it boils down to.

And of course you know when a skater has made it big when FSU starts complaining about the skater.

He does have to learn how to be consistent on the jumps though.

judgejudy27
11-26-2010, 01:30 AM
Chan has already been awarded the golds for Worlds in 2011, 2012, 2013, and the 2014 Olympics. How he skates or how many times he falls is irrelevant. The golds are already bought and payed for. Lets just hope he skates well enough to reasonably justify his series of already pre ordained gold medals (especialy the Olympic one with the whole World watching) to salvage some credabilty with a sport with almost none less to the general public as it is, hence why those of us who want to watch skating are already relegated to cheap internet feeds to watch a sport nearly everyone has already been alienated from.

Allen
11-26-2010, 01:33 AM
Chan has already been awarded the golds for Worlds in 2011, 2012, 2013, and the 2014 Olympics. How he skates or how many times he falls is irrelevant. The golds are already bought and payed for. Lets just hope he skates well enough to reasonably justify his series of already pre ordained gold medals (especialy the Olympic one with the whole World watching) to salvage some credabiilty with a sport with almost none less to the general public as it is.

If that's the case, then I just want him to stand up more jumps and stop being a douchebag...that's all ;)

judgejudy27
11-26-2010, 01:36 AM
Bear in mind Patrick's CoR LP score was 20 points lower than Skate Canada. If he were to skate clean and land the quad, he would easily score over 170 points. Those three falls cost him more than 20 points. That's a huge hit to take on your scores, so I really disagree that he was overscored here.

Of course you completely ignore the fact his quad was downgraded and he had a combo discounted and still arrived at that score.

Dragonlady
11-26-2010, 01:53 AM
Yes, Chan's skating is sublime, but here we go again with the whole "if you don't think Chan deserves his score then you don't understand skating and/or are only a casual fan." :rolleyes:

Well, it's true. If you truly can't see where his marks are coming from, you don't understand scoring system or what is being judged.

In terms of the basic skating and technical ability, Takahashi and Chan are the Yagudin and Plushenko of their generation: two skaters whose basic skating, speed, flow and attack are at a whole other level from the rest of the field.

bek
11-26-2010, 01:53 AM
I think he deserves the marks and I still think that people don't understand the new system .. that's what it boils down to.

And of course you know when a skater has made it big when FSU starts complaining about the skater.

He does have to learn how to be consistent on the jumps though.

I'm not sure understanding the system is going to be liking the system. And why should Patrick have to learn to be consistent with his jumps, when he's getting those kind of scores for programs with that many falls..


There have been very few "clean" skates from any of the men so far this season, and frankly who cares when it's so early in the season and worlds is still a few months away?


None of those guys have been averaging four falls a competition.



Chan hasn’t peeled off his shirt, shaken his booty, done hip thrusts, grabbed his man parts, engaged in imaginary swordplay, juggling, tight rope walking, or blown kisses, to legendary dance diva’s, to my knowledge. Perhaps if he did, or was considered super hot he would have more younger computer savy fans posting on FSU. Chan skates sophisticated, complex, and athletically demanding programs in order to score big points and probably has older far less vocal fans to defend him on internet forums. His COP rich kind of skating may not appeal to casual fan who’s looking to be entertained, caring more about skater’s looks, costumes, country of origin, and knowing little beyond a jump landed upright is good, but a fall on butt is considered bad. Hey we all started that way, but hopefully we become more educated, less emotional over time.

This post is so insulting. Nobody's complaining because Chan has a more lyrical style, they are complaining because he falls multiple times in a program. Nor is anyone even bringing up his looks (and I actually think Patrick Chan is looking cute this year, he's no Joubert, but who is). Lambiel is very good looking and charismatic, and he use to be a favorite of mine but in the last quad I hated some of his scores. Nothing to do with his style seeing as Lambiel has the best style of all the men, and everything to do with his messy skates.

And your never going to educate me to think that its okay for a skater to fall four times and win multiple competitions. I do understand by now there are other mistake issues. Does Michael Weiss need to be educated about this sport too, since he said he disagree on Universal? Can it be that some of us think falling on your butt three times in your program just means that program was poorly executed?


Yuna Kim and Asada, also had some pretty huge cushions in this last cycle, anyone want to argue why other girls w

Yu-na and Mao dominated technically and artistically. Yu-na almost always did a 3/3 in the short, and a 3/3 and a double axel in the long. Asada was doing triple axels and 3/3s. Then they had beautiful program. Multiple falls in competitions were rare from both girls though. Both girls had a tendency to when they scored really well normally to make maybe one mistake. But I don't know if Yu-na for example EVER had a competition where she fell 3 times in one program. And Asada does get hit when she messes up. To compare Asada and Kim to Chan is laughable when both girls essentially delivered to win their titles.



In terms of the basic skating and technical ability, Takahashi and Chan are the Yagudin and Plushenko of their generation: two skaters whose basic skating, speed, flow and attack are at a whole other level from the rest of the field.

Except Yagudin and Plushenko landed their jumps. I don't know if I ever recall seeing either one of them falling four times in a competition and winning. That's the difference. They didn't just have basic skating. And last I checked Kozuka has amazing basics as well.

Vash01
11-26-2010, 01:58 AM
None of those guys have been averaging four falls a competition.


Yu-na and Mao dominated technically and artistically. Yu-na almost always did a 3/3 in the short, and a 3/3 and a double axel in the long. Asada was doing triple axels and 3/3s. Then they had beautiful programs. When Asada skated poorly her scores dropped big time. Multiple falls in competitions were rare from both girls though. Neither girl ever averaged 4 falls in the 2 GP sessions.

ITA. When Mao had multiple falls she was penalized severely, and according to the rules. When she made mistakes in her first GP this year, she dropped to #8. I don't see that with Patrick, and I believe that is the main point of this discussion.

I feel insulted by some of the posts here that insist that if I don't agree with Patrick's marks it means I don't understand the judging system.

dundas
11-26-2010, 02:37 AM
I deserve to be world champion if Patrick deserves those scores. :scream::scream:

We're living in a la la land. :wall:

It's laughable to suggest Chan falls because his choreography is too complicated. Chan has never truly mastered 3A.

Allen
11-26-2010, 03:00 AM
Well, it's true. If you truly can't see where his marks are coming from, you don't understand scoring system or what is being judged.

In terms of the basic skating and technical ability, Takahashi and Chan are the Yagudin and Plushenko of their generation: two skaters whose basic skating, speed, flow and attack are at a whole other level from the rest of the field.

I'm glad someone finally mentioned Takahashi in this conversation. I think the problem a lot of people have is that when you fall 3-4 times, it mars the program and the performance. That isn't taking away his actual skating ability. I do actually understand why, based on the system, Chan is getting the marks he is getting. However, if it is true that judges are being written up for varying their PCS marks by more than 1 point, that's the real explanation. I think if that was not the case, his PE and possibly IN marks might be lower. If it is the case, then the judges have to mark his PE within 1 point of the other marks and that makes sense. I just wish judges were able to vary their points more in the case of a skater with fantastic transitions and skating skill bombing or the in case of someone with limited skating skills, but amazing interpretation.

Ozzisk8tr
11-26-2010, 03:21 AM
I deserve to be world champion if Patrick deserves those scores. :scream::scream:

We're living in a la la land. :wall:

It's laughable to suggest Chan falls because his choreography is too complicated. Chan has never truly mastered 3A.

You've posted 5 times too many already. You lose more and more credibility with each post. Oh wait, you have to have some credibility to start with to lose any don't you?

Marco
11-26-2010, 03:27 AM
Yes, Chan's skating is sublime, but here we go again with the whole "if you don't think Chan deserves his score then you don't understand skating and/or are only a casual fan." :rolleyes:

I understand the sentiment, but I have yet to read a post where a poster objectively discusses how he does not fit the PCS criteria for earning the marks he earned. The math was pretty clear IMO. All I read was "he fell four times and therefore it mustn't deserve good marks".

On the other hand, gkelly and many others have written detailed and insightful posts about the current system and about Chan's skating only to be brushed off by "I know jumps don't matter but he fell four times!", hence my post before about evolving and learning (and Debrah made a similar point above too) 6.0 is more focused on the overall picture and COP more with each part. We haven't been with 6.0 for 7 years now, time to move on! Just because a competition would likely have been judged differently under 6.0 does not mean the COP result is wrong. Everyone needs to play by the current rules.

I don't appreciate Chan's (lack of) artistry either, but he does excel at the skills-based components of PCS. What people tend to forget is that, while only 13 elements constitute a program's TES, many more bullet points constitute PCS. Having fallen 4 times only affect some, but not all of those bullet points.

professordeb
11-26-2010, 03:47 AM
Chan has already been awarded the golds for Worlds in 2011, 2012, 2013, and the 2014 Olympics. How he skates or how many times he falls is irrelevant. The golds are already bought and payed for. Lets just hope he skates well enough to reasonably justify his series of already pre ordained gold medals (especialy the Olympic one with the whole World watching) to salvage some credabilty with a sport with almost none less to the general public as it is, hence why those of us who want to watch skating are already relegated to cheap internet feeds to watch a sport nearly everyone has already been alienated from.

:rolleyes: How many more times will you continue to insist that "Chan has been awarded the golds for ..."? And you think the golds are already bought and paid (not payed) for. I mean we get it, you don't like him. :violin: Any chance you could stop repeating yourself, or do you just enjoy saying the same thing over and over and over. Are you stuck in an infinite loop? :lol:

sk8er1964
11-26-2010, 05:01 AM
Except that your original post in response to mine was misunderstood. You were pointing out to me that one-foot footwork isn't that difficult (hence implying that what Chan is doing isn't that difficult) because a lot of skaters are doing one-foot footwork, whereas I was talking about Chan's one-foot *skating*.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

Bless your heart. Thank you for admitting that you completely misunderstood my original post.

ks1227
11-26-2010, 06:03 AM
The German Pair for example are racking of some pretty impressive margins themselves all while not being super clean, anybody on FSU giving them as much grief, as they are giving the still very young Chan?

Actually, I think this is a very interesting comparison to Chan. (Although some folks on FSU do give them grief!!) Great skills + a few obvious mistakes in the program can still come out on top in a given competition.