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merrywidow
11-24-2010, 06:13 PM
IMO he should have won Russia. Verner skated well but a very simple program in comparison to Chan's & even Abbott's. Patrick is an exquisite skater, those deep edges are clearly the best in the world today. His speed can't be discounted & is easily seen on TV. At 19 he is only going to continue to grow & he has the potential imo to become another John Curry, remembered long after his skating days have ended. (BTW, I am a very biased US skating fan & Toller Cranston was the last Canadian champion that I was a fan of)

CantALoop
11-24-2010, 09:45 PM
I think one of the big reasons that I can't get into Patrick Chan's skating is that he does have a lot of intricate transitions, but most of it is meaningless movement for the sake of choreography and serves nothing but to fill empty space. It's like he's a painter with masterful technique and detail but the overall picture is confused and busy and leaves the viewer with no overall impression.

Take Five is absolutely packed with choreography, but the "ladies' man bar fight" theme just comes across to me as corny and unconvincing. I'm not even sure what he's trying to convey with Phantom of the Opera.

senorita
11-24-2010, 11:09 PM
The way you put it, it looks like deep edges and speed which he is the best of for sure, would be enough to win a men competition today.

JustSaying
11-25-2010, 12:24 AM
:lynch:I think it is amazing that their are so many people that disagree with the marks received by Patrick Chan.
I have enjoyed watching figure skating for years & although admittingly do not know all of the criteria involved as to why the individual skaters receive the Judging scores they do or the ISU rules that guide them to arriving at these final totals.....
But the fact remains that there is a consistency among the International Judges that Patrick Chan is deserving of the marks he receives.
What does this suggest to you..?
An International Conspiracy by all of the ISU Figure Skating Judges to give Chan inflated marks.... excuse me but Why..?
A flawed system of juging..? Perhaps in some ways .. but why does it only seem to apply th Patrick Chan. A flawed system in one opinion may be deemed a perfect system by another if the scoring gave them an advantage given their particular skills.
There is never a 'perfect' system & always room for debate by knowlegable experts in whatever field being debated.
That is part of the wonderful Democratic society we live in.
Having said that..., what I do know is quality & the quality of Patrick Chan's skating is, (IMO), absolutly exceptional & sometimes breathtaking, not to mention rarely seen.
Which has to be part of the reason why he consistantly receives the well deserved high scores he does.
Oh..., or maybe it's just an International Juding Conspiracy.
You be the Judge... you know you will...lol.

Rafter
11-25-2010, 02:39 AM
IMHO, you have to see him skate live to understand the brilliance of his edges, his ice coverage, the quality of his spins and jumps (that quad this year looks like a triple, it looks so easy and so smooth).

I'm thinking you might be right. A lot of the Chan-bashing armchair skating critics on this board probably haven't seem him skate live. I don't think there is another male skater currently competing that has the depth of edge, power, speed and difficult transitions like Chan. I also think some fans don't get how he really racks up the points under CoP: probably levels 4s on footwork and spins plus +GEOs on footwork, spins, and the jumps he does land (:lol:) because usually his jumps have tremendous speed and flow going into them and on the landing (see quad in the LP at SC for ex) - and with a difficult MITF connecting them.

I really think Chan doesn't get enough credit for all of his difficult ONE-FOOT skating. That makes his programs more dificult than the others. So many skaters have rest periods (i.e. all Morozov skaters) or do tons of two foot skating (Joubert) or just do cross-cuts around the ice setting up the jumps (Joubert, Oda, Verner, Takahashi to an extent). Chan does none of this.

This being said, however, there was a poster on the CoR Mens LP thread who commented that it seems like Chan is rushing through his LP. Good comment - I agree it seems that his LP is too full of choreo and transitions that it does appear he is rushing through trying to keep up. I really wish Lori would allow a teeny bit more breathing space for him.

I'm interested to see if Patrick will get more consistent with his quad over the course of the season and in future seasons. I actually think a 50% success rate at his age and at this point of his including the quad in the program is pretty respectable.

DreamSkates
11-25-2010, 02:58 AM
I don't know enough about scoring to make a comment except that these comments make me take a closer look at his skating and compare it to others - I have noticed how smooth and fast he is over the ice compared to others.

sk8gr8h8
11-25-2010, 03:30 AM
the entire post

I agree with you 100%. I feel the amazing quality of his skating doesn't really come out as good on tv. And I also concur that if the program was a little less complex, he would have more room to build up for jumps (and maybe less falling too).

Chan doesn't deserve his scores.. I say he deserves more.

jtpc
11-25-2010, 03:37 AM
I really think Chan doesn't get enough credit for all of his difficult ONE-FOOT skating. That makes his programs more dificult than the others. So many skaters have rest periods (i.e. all Morozov skaters) or do tons of two foot skating (Joubert) or just do cross-cuts around the ice setting up the jumps (Joubert, Oda, Verner, Takahashi to an extent). Chan does none of this.
So true. I've posted Chan's emphasis on one-foot skating a few times as well, and in addition to all of those points Rafter has mentioned, Chan's skating and program layout is multi-directional...combine all of that with the difficult, varied and continuous transitions, and he is by far the best in my opinion in those areas.

This is just a guess on my part, but maybe the casual fan isn't looking with such a critical eye for these things and so maybe they're not being picked up. People are quick to point out that Chan had more falls than a competitor, but what he loses for a fall he can gain back with footwork, spins and higher grades of execution on landed jumps.

I'm surprised some people don't think his landed jumps are anything special, but maybe this goes back to the point about not looking for certain things that make quality stand out. Take these descriptors that you can apply to Chan's skating...creative/difficult jump entry, clear recognizable steps immediately preceding the element, good height/distance, good extension on landing/creative exit, good flow from entry to exit, effortless throughout and element matched to musical structure. Any 4 of those items can get you a +2. With those guidelines in mind, you can see how Chan's executed jumps are earning him higher points. Sometimes a jump of his will have all 7 of those qualities...combine that with strong footwork and spins, and I don't think people should be so surprised with his high technical scores even when there is a fall or two (or the even higher scores when there is no fall ;)).

sk8er1964
11-25-2010, 03:43 AM
I really think Chan doesn't get enough credit for all of his difficult ONE-FOOT skating. That makes his programs more dificult than the others.

Just a point...one foot skating in footwork isn't that difficult for senior level skaters. At least in the US, skaters have to do rink long one foot passages to pass their senior moves in the field.

Rafter
11-25-2010, 03:55 AM
Just a point...one foot skating in footwork isn't that difficult for senior level skaters. At least in the US, skaters have to do rink long one foot passages to pass their senior moves in the field.

If that is true then why don't more skaters DO more one-foot skating in their competitive programs? That includes US skaters like Weir and Lysacek and Rippon and Mroz. As I recall, these US skaters just did/do a lot of progressives to set up the jumps.

Thinking about this some more, I would actually like to see the top men in the world attempt to do Chan's programs. I wonder if they would actually be able to land the jumps, maintain the same speed and flow and power, AND handle the footwork and transitional difficulty the way he does. My bet is they'd all fall a lot more than Chan and might not even make it to the end of the program. ;)

I'd also like like to rewind a little and have them try his exact programs when they were each 19 years old. Even a skater like Rippon is what 2 years? older than Chan and his programs (difficulty-wise) don't come close to Chan's and yet Adam struggles with the jumps.

bek
11-25-2010, 06:11 AM
Thinking about this some more, I would actually like to see the top men in the world attempt to do Chan's programs. I wonder if they would actually be able to land the jumps, maintain the same speed and flow and power, AND handle the footwork and transitional difficulty the way he does. My bet is they'd all fall a lot more than Chan and might not even make it to the end of the program.


But the point of the matter is Chan can't handle his programs. When was the last time we saw Patrick go clean in the long program? Its a straw man's argument to argue that Chan is better than everyone else because Chan does complicated programs that no other man in the world could do "clean" when Patrick himself has shown repeatedly that he can't execute his programs consistently. Even in his great long at Skate Canada, a lot of his jumps were very shaky.

Its totally possible that some of these men could stack their programs more too and/or skate a bit faster too, but don't do so because they realize they couldn't do it clean.

That's the issue currently I have with Patrick. He may be a wonderful skater with great basics, and he may have all these transitions/choregraphy. But the guys execution currently sucks.

I don't think anyone should be encouraged to add difficulty they can't execute reasonably well on a consistent basis.

Marco
11-25-2010, 06:22 AM
One foot skating isn't just about footwork, it's about the whole program. It's about minimising crossovers and gliding on 2 feet yet still maintaining good speed and flow across the ice (and while maintaing balance, line and posture), which demonstrates good edge quality. And being on one foot is tiring because that foot supports the weight of the whole body.

Watch Chan and then watch any Joubert or Plushenko performance and notice how much time each of them are on one foot. For that matter, watch how much Chan (and Abbott) switches between clockwise and anti-clockwise, and watch how much Joubert and Plushenko does that.

bek
11-25-2010, 06:46 AM
One foot skating isn't just about footwork, it's about the whole program. It's about minimising crossovers and gliding on 2 feet yet still maintaining good speed and flow across the ice (and while maintaing balance, line and posture), which demonstrates good edge quality. And being on one foot is tiring because that foot supports the weight of the whole body.

Watch Chan and then watch any Joubert or Plushenko performance and notice how much time each of them are on one foot. For that matter, watch how much Chan (and Abbott) switches between clockwise and anti-clockwise, and watch how much Joubert and Plushenko does that.

But neither Patrick or Abbott has shown they can actually execute their programs consistently. I watch Abbott's programs and the way he moves his body and I love it, and I DO enjoy watching Patrick, when he's skating well. But I'm sorry I don't enjoy watching either of them fall multiple times in their programs either.

My issue with saying well Patrick/Abbott have complicated programs, and so they deserve to be rewarded when they are falling on their arses multiple times, is because when I see both guys falling multiple times, they haven't convinced me that they can actually handle their own programs. I want difficulty to be rewarded-and that is when it comes to jumps, or when it comes to difficult choregraphy/transitions.

But I think that it has to be difficulty that said person can show they can execute. When you have skater averaging 4 falls a competition, and before people say its the quad, Chan was averaging a lot of falls last year. They have clearly shown they can't execute their programs at a reasonable level.

If people win competitions with multiple falls-its going to destroy this sport because the average viewer is going to find it incomprehensible.

I'm sorry but execution has to matter just as much as difficulty. As for the other guys can't do the difficult/transitions/choregraphy. One could suggest that maybe they are actually trying to go with programs they can execute.

When Patrick/Abbott execute their programs well-yes they deserve to win. But the idea of rewarding them for having "complicated programs" that are so difficulty they are falling multiple times is wrong IMO. You should only get rewarded for things you actually DO in competition.

And for the record, when I say executing your program well I'm not saying the way people argued in Salt Lake that "one stumble" or one fall means-said skater should lose. I'm saying that 3 falls in one program-should result in a significantly bad score. And it doesn't matter who the skater is whether it be Yu-na Kim, Patrick Chan, Daisuke Takahashi, Lambiel etc.

I strongly suspect if Patrick was told that he'd be hit hard for all of his falls mess ups, that Patrick would respond by going for programs that he could actually execute at a "reasonable level". He'd probably fall less, the judges could justifiably reward the guy for his amazing skating, and everyone would be happier.

judgejudy27
11-25-2010, 07:28 AM
I dont see how on earth Abbott can be linked with Chan. Abbott is not a judges favorite at all and he does not get any breaks when he makes mistakes. Only when he skated perfectly or close to it does he have any success.

bek
11-25-2010, 07:37 AM
I dont see how on earth Abbott can be linked with Chan. Abbott is not a judges favorite at all and he does not get any breaks when he makes mistakes. Only when he skated perfectly or close to it does he have any success.

Well Abbott is hardly the favorite Patrick is, he's gotten some very high scores for programs with multiple falls. I remember at Worlds in the long when he was scored very close to an almost clean Adam Rippon. Now part of it was that Abbott did have some hard jumps done with his falls, but I was like meh.

I want to say Abbott's case though IS part of the problem with the whole "choregraphy" transitions thing. The issue I have is that there are skaters who absolutely DO get punished hard when they fall repeatedly, unlike Patrick. And while people can say all they want that the judges are just being "objective" I'm frankly not convinced. In the end there is no point system when it comes to choregraphy/transitions. There's no guarantee for a skater that they will get this much points if they put this amount of choregraphy in and this amount if they don't. In the end the judges pretty much freakin do what they want. Look at how the judges scored S/S and S/Z at the Olympics in the short program. Say will about which couple you liked better. But most people will tell you that the Germans had way harder choregraphy and transitions than S/Z. Way harder, but did the scores show that? Nope.


I guess the point is that the other skaters who aren't as politically favored as Chan, and yes Chan is politically favored they can't be guaranteed that if they stack their programs as ridiculously as Chan does, that they will be rewarded the same way Patrick. Which is another reason why arguing that obvious errors should be overlooked for things not as obvious.

I mean to illustrate my point, Patrick got higher scores on choregraphy/transitions than Verner. And I can totally accept that because Verner's choregraphy/transitions suck. But did Jeremy Abbott get higher scores on choregraphy/transitions than Verner? I don't believe Jeremy did, although I have to check the protocols.