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RunnersHigh
11-23-2010, 03:07 PM
Let's see men's PCS%TES who stood on the podium until now this season.

[Legend]
TES: Total TES from SP, LP and falls
PCS: Total PCS from SP and LP
FALLs: Total FALLs from SP and LP

Event/Rank Name................................ TES PCS (FALLs) PCS%TES
SA.. 1........ Daisuke TAKAHASHI........... 99.64 127.43 (1) 127.89%
CoR 2........ Patrick CHAN................... 105.49 121.72 (4) 115.39%
CoR 3........ Jeremy ABBOTT............... 101.33 115.88 (2) 114.36%
NHK 1........ Daisuke TAKAHASHI......... 110.00 124.79 (1) 113.45%
SA.. 2........ Nobunari ODA................. 106.77 119.32 (1) 111.75%
NHK 2........ Jeremy ABBOTT............... 103.42 114.77 (0) 110.97%
CoC 3 ........Tomas VERNER................ 102.70 112.11 (0) 109.16%
SC.. 1........ Patrick CHAN.................. 115.91 123.61 (4) 106.64%
CoR 1........ Tomas VERNER................ 115.04 115.27 (0) 100.20%
NHK 3........ Florent AMODIO............... 110.92 102.85 (0) 92.72%
SC.. 3........ Adam RIPPON.................. 121.35 111.59 (0) 91.96%
SA.. 3........ Armin MAHBANOOZADEH.... 110.67 100.52 (0) 90.83%
SC.. 2........ Nobunari ODA.................. 124.24 112.28 (1) 90.37%
CoC 1 ........Takahiko KOZUKA............. 122.71 110.80 (0) 90.29%
CoC 2 ........Brandon MROZ................. 117.49 99.31 (0) 84.53%

I know TES is not everything to do with PCS and I also know how many falls is not everything to do with PCS. Now let Patrick CHAN free from this idle talk! :yawn:

Seerek
11-23-2010, 03:55 PM
Let's see men's PCS%TES who stood on the podium until now this season.

[Legend]
TES: Total TES from SP, LP and falls
PCS: Total PCS from SP and LP
FALLs: Total FALLs from SP and LP

Event/Rank Name................................ TES PCS (FALLs) PCS%TES
SA.. 1........ Daisuke TAKAHASHI........... 99.64 127.43 (1) 127.89%
CoR 2........ Patrick CHAN................... 105.49 121.72 (4) 115.39%
CoR 3........ Jeremy ABBOTT............... 101.33 115.88 (2) 114.36%
NHK 1........ Daisuke TAKAHASHI......... 110.00 124.79 (1) 113.45%
SA.. 2........ Nobunari ODA................. 106.77 119.32 (1) 111.75%
NHK 2........ Jeremy ABBOTT............... 103.42 114.77 (0) 110.97%
CoC 3 ........Tomas VERNER................ 102.70 112.11 (0) 109.16%
SC.. 1........ Patrick CHAN.................. 115.91 123.61 (4) 106.64%
CoR 1........ Tomas VERNER................ 115.04 115.27 (0) 100.20%
NHK 3........ Florent AMODIO............... 110.92 102.85 (0) 92.72%
SC.. 3........ Adam RIPPON.................. 121.35 111.59 (0) 91.96%
SA.. 3........ Armin MAHBANOOZADEH.... 110.67 100.52 (0) 90.83%
SC.. 2........ Nobunari ODA.................. 124.24 112.28 (1) 90.37%
CoC 1 ........Takahiko KOZUKA............. 122.71 110.80 (0) 90.29%
CoC 2 ........Brandon MROZ................. 117.49 99.31 (0) 84.53%

I know TES is not everything to do with PCS and I also know how many falls is not everything to do with PCS. Now let Patrick CHAN free from this idle talk! :yawn:

Interesting analysis... I think the fact that about half of those ratios are over 100% and half under 100% probably justifies having the PCS multipliers for the men be 1.0 and 2.0 for the SP and FS (as opposed to 0.8 and 1.6 for the ladies and pairs).

Imagine if we had applied 0.8 and 1.6 multipliers for the men...

euterpe
11-23-2010, 04:12 PM
I am surprised by this because he is a pianist as well, and they very often feel the music. I'll have to watch his skating over again.

Playing the piano at the concert level doesn't necessarily translate into projecting the music as a skater. Case in point: Mira Leung, who was also a pianist but was known for her flat performances on the ice.

Chan may be a pianist, but his concentration seems to be on executing individual elements rather than expressing the character of the music.

Dragonlady
11-23-2010, 04:16 PM
Chan may be a pianist, but his concentration seems to be on executing individual elements rather than expressing the character of the music.

I strongly disagree. He expresses the music brilliantly. If he was flat and unexpressive, as you suggest, he would skate all of his programs the same. There would be no playfulness in his Take 5, no passion in his Phantom.

At this point, he is still learning the reworked Phantom program. This is NOT the program he skated last season, but a new one to the Phantom music. As he becomes more comfortable with the program, he can surrender more to the music.

euterpe
11-23-2010, 04:21 PM
I strongly disagree. He expresses the music brilliantly. If he was flat and unexpressive, as you suggest, he would skate all of his programs the same. There would be no playfulness in his Take 5, no passion in his Phantom.

Sorry, I didn't see any playfulness in the SP at SC. And I've never seen passion in Chan's POTO, and this is his second season with it.

I see the same thing over and over: a skater concentrating on performing difficult elements and transitions. It isn't so much that he is flat as that he doesn't seem to relate to the music, so he doesn't project any particular emotion or expression.

Dragonlady
11-23-2010, 05:01 PM
Sorry, I didn't see any playfulness in the SP at SC. And I've never seen passion in Chan's POTO, and this is his second season with it.

It's hard to display playfulness when you're falling on your ass. Perhaps you should look at his Skate America performance.

My impression is that you wouldn't see anything positive in Patrick's skating ever, and if you did, you'd ignore it so there's no point in commenting further.

euterpe
11-23-2010, 05:45 PM
I saw the SA SP. Chan didn't compete at SA.

Chan's basic skating is excellent, particularly his speed, footwork and edging. If all of his jumps were stable and consistent, and his artistic expression/projection was as good as his basics, then no one would complain about overmarking.

Dragonlady
11-23-2010, 06:39 PM
Chan's basic skating is excellent, particularly his speed, footwork and edging. If all of his jumps were stable and consistent, and his artistic expression/projection was as good as his basics, then no one would complain about overmarking.

Yeah right. If you believe what you just posted, I have a lovely ski resort in Miami you may be interested in purchasing.

dinakt
11-23-2010, 06:56 PM
Yeah right. If you believe what you just posted, I have a lovely ski resort in Miami you may be interested in purchasing.

Why? That's similar to how I see it, and I have absolutely nothing against Patrick, at all. His comments do not annoy me- well, except the "judges want me to do well" one. If he cared about his expression as much as he cares about his footwork, he would be my favorite skater and I'd have nothing to complain about :)

Dragonlady
11-23-2010, 07:07 PM
Why? That's similar to how I see it, and I have absolutely nothing against Patrick, at all. His comments do not annoy me- well, except the "judges want me to do well" one. If he cared about his expression as much as he cares about his footwork, he would be my favorite skater and I'd have nothing to complain about :)

euterpe has a long history of trashing Chan.

Polymer Bob
11-23-2010, 08:30 PM
My own belief is that falls have a psychological effect on the judges, making other elements look uglier. So falls have the effect of lowering the PSC score, even if it is not within the rules to do so. It could be we are seeing a new trend to get away from that. Maybe judges are now trying to separate the jumps from the other elements. So when Patrick fell, they deducted the points they were supposed to deduct, then did not let the fall blind them to all he did correctly.

If this is a new trend, I don’t mind ..... if all skaters are treated equally.

RobinA
11-24-2010, 04:16 AM
Maybe I'm alone, but I'm really tired of all the whining and snarking about Patrick Chan's scores. I actually don't think he has been overscored at all. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7H60-jJyg

It's time for some of us to start standing up for the minority view at FSU. I honestly can't think of a single skater right now who skates this well. And I think all the folks who are whining about "chanflation" need to name a skater who is better than this. Or shut up. ;)

And I'm not even Canadian. :shuffle:

Gotta agree. I was never a Chan fan, but when it comes to pure skating skills he's the best out there right now by far. Until some of the other guys get some better blade control, he's going to have a 1 or 2 splat advantage every time over just about everybody except Takahashi.

Marco
11-24-2010, 05:57 AM
I also think he deserves his scores. Element-wise, everything he plans to do is difficult. Even if he falls, he rotates his jumps which hurts him less than if he pops them. His spins and footwork are very good and he almost always deserves good GOEs on them.

In terms of skating skills he really is one of the best of the field, the others being Takahashi, Oda and Kozuka (all above 8 or 8.5 IMO). And unlike the Japanese, he displays such high level skating skills while doing very complex choreography. Abbott, Verner and Joubert are a league below him (all mid 7s IMO) in that they are less effortless than Chan and the Japanese. Joubert, as powerful as he is, is almost always on 2 feet and skating only in one direction.

In terms of transitions it really is just him (8.5). Abbott is slightly behind (8). And then there's Rippon (7.5) and Kozuka. I can't think of another top guy I would give above a 6.

In terms of choreogaphy Chan gets marks for complexity more than for the artistic value. I would probably give the highest CH score to Abbott, Takahashi and maybe Rippon and Chan this season. Otherwise I don't remember any noteworthy programs from the top guys.

In terms of interpretation, Takahashi (8.5) and Verner (8) get my nod. Chan isn't innately musical but he hits nuances well and paces himself well. I would probably put him with Rippon and Abbott at the mid 7s.

P/E score can obviously be affected by falls, but besides those falls Chan generally attacks his program and presents it well. I at least prefer a 3 fall Chan over a no fall Oda (from audience point of view). I think a maximum of 0.5 deduction on P/E for each fall or disruptive mistake (fall out, step out, spins ending in grinding halt, stumbles during footwork) is acceptable as they markedly affect the delivery of a performance.

Obviously, even if Chan were to receive these deductions he would still have won Skate Canada and place a solid second in Skate America (which IMO is more than fair no matter how harsh you want to view Chan's skating).

alilou
11-24-2010, 07:33 AM
nm

clarie
11-24-2010, 12:14 PM
I would rather see a skater attempt a jump and rotate it (even if they fall) than have a skater pop a jump. I think Patrick has been well trained not to pop jumps but to attempt even if it doesn't feel right. To me, popping a jump is just as disruptive than an attempt and fall.........