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icellist
11-07-2010, 08:43 PM
I see absolutely no skaters trying to do jump combinations with the half loops anymore. The half-loops give a lot of variety other than the toes or loops we always see and a lot more points (?). Was there a rule change so no one does it anymore? Or is it too risky?

anyway i'd just like to see more variety in jump combinations :slinkaway

Ziggy
11-07-2010, 08:45 PM
Half-loops don't give more points, they are called as loops from this season.

Skaters ARE performing them more often than before.

Rochette at cheesefest.

Leonova, Sawyer, Chan, Kemp/King at GP.

And there must be more, those were just off the top of my head.

hanca
11-07-2010, 08:46 PM
I see absolutely no skaters trying to do jump combinations with the half loops anymore. The half-loops give a lot of variety other than the toes or loops we always see and a lot more points (?). Was there a rule change so no one does it anymore? Or is it too risky?

anyway i'd just like to see more variety in jump combinations :slinkaway

Triple-half loop -triple is now a combination of three jumps (3-1-3). I think it may be easier for skaters to do triple -double-double (3-2-2) and the result is probably very similar pointwise, so why bother with two triples connected by half loop?

Sylvia
11-07-2010, 08:47 PM
Actually, this season more skaters are attempting combinations joined in the middle by the half loop (designated as '1Lo' in the detailed protocols) because of the ISU rule change that now counts it as a true combination (full base value of the two jumps) rather than as a sequence (80% of the base value of the two jumps).

I'm sure others can point out examples from the detailed protocols so far this season (eta like Ziggy above). OK, here's one:
Alena Leonova's 3T+1Lo+3S in her Cup of China FS had a base value of 8.80 and with the positive GOE she received, the total value for this combo was 9.50.

icellist
11-07-2010, 08:50 PM
oh ok, i'm just really psyched if i can see a triple lutz (half loop) triple flip
or triple lutz (half loop) triple sal

but i doubt anyone's going to do those XD

duane
11-08-2010, 03:09 AM
My favorite 3-1-3 landed is Plushenko's 3A-1Lp-3F at the 02 Olympics. I don't follow FS like I used to, but I doubt anyone has landed a more difficult 3-1-3.

Marco
11-08-2010, 03:19 AM
My favorite 3-1-3 landed is Plushenko's 3A-1Lp-3F at the 02 Olympics. I don't follow FS like I used to, but I doubt anyone has landed a more difficult 3-1-3.

That was awesome and so unexpected!

And the funniest moment so far this season is Joubert having his half loop downgraded (<<) and received mandatory -GOEs for it. :lol:

Marco
11-08-2010, 03:20 AM
Triple-half loop -triple is now a combination of three jumps (3-1-3). I think it may be easier for skaters to do triple -double-double (3-2-2) and the result is probably very similar pointwise, so why bother with two triples connected by half loop?

To allow another 2axel.

hanca
11-08-2010, 02:30 PM
To allow another 2axel.

You don't make sense. If a skater does 3-2-2, it will be the same as 3-1-3. It doesn't have any impact on double Axel.

gkelly
11-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Suppose you have a female skater who can do all the different triples except axel but cannot do a 3-3 combination.

If she does 3-1-3 for her 3-jump combination, then she can do 7 triples in 6 jumping passes and have one more pass available the required axel jump, which she can do as a double maybe in some positive way.

If she does 3-2-2 as her 3-jump combination, if the first triple jump is the same, 2Lo+2Lo will add a bit less base value than 1Lo+3S. So the question would be which combo she could carry more flow through to the end and earn higher GOE.

But more important, if she is unable to do a triple jump from the landing of another triple (or double axel) and chooses to use her 3-jump combo on 3-2-2, she wouldn't be able to fit in 7 triples and a double axel.

She could do 6 triples, one in each of 6 jumping passes, some with double jumps on the end, and a double axel.

Or she could do a triple something-double axel sequence, which would incur the 80% sequence penalty.

Now that the half-loop combination no longer incurs that penalty, the advantage of using it is to allow a female skater to get full value for 7 triples and a double axel (when she completes them all successfully).

It's less useful for the men because they have one more jumping pass to work with and are more likely to be able to do some kind of 3-3 combo (or 4-3, for the best jumpers).

briancoogaert
11-08-2010, 03:19 PM
You don't make sense. If a skater does 3-2-2, it will be the same as 3-1-3. It doesn't have any impact on double Axel.
Yes it makes sense. If you land two triple jumps in combo or sequence, you open a new slot for another 2Axel.

And I agree with gkelly about the fact that it's less useful for the men, except that it's easier for some skaters to land cleanly 3/half-loop/2sal than 3/2toe/2Loop.
And it's almost the same points. See Joubert, he has many troubles with those three jumps combo. But it's easier to do a half-Loop. The problem with him is that it seems he never learnt the half-loop properly !!!!

floskate
11-08-2010, 06:14 PM
oh ok, i'm just really psyched if i can see a triple lutz (half loop) triple flip
or triple lutz (half loop) triple sal

but i doubt anyone's going to do those XD

Patrick Chan has 3z half loop 3s in his LP. He doubled the sal in his LP at Skate Canada but did it in practice, so you should see that combination this season. :)

Seerek
11-08-2010, 07:28 PM
I'm not sure about the math on this, but does this mean that we'll see way less

<whatever jump> + step + double axel sequences

and more

<whatever jump> + half loop + double(triple) salchow/double (triple) flip sequences in future?

briancoogaert
11-08-2010, 07:45 PM
I'm not sure about the math on this, but does this mean that we'll see way less

<whatever jump> + step + double axel sequences

and more

<whatever jump> + half loop + double(triple) salchow/double (triple) flip sequences in future?
It depends on the skater, but I think you're right about math.

Susan M
11-08-2010, 07:53 PM
Suppose you have a female skater who can do all the different triples except axel but cannot do a 3-3 combination.

If she does 3-1-3 for her 3-jump combination,

I don't think putting the half loop in makes the second triple any easier. Its main value is that it puts the skater on the other foot, to permit the following jump to be salchow, flip or lutz, rather than loop or toeloop.

I am trying to recall if any ladies have successfully done a 3-1-3 series who could not also do a 3-3. Numerous ladies over the years have planned 2A-halfL-3S but rarely actually landed them in competition. I do recall Kurt Browning doing a very pretty one a few years ago in one of his SOI numbers.