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UGG
11-12-2010, 06:22 PM
I don't think there is any accepted mathematics to determine who succeeded and who failed in an attempt to earn 3 spots. The criteria I use is that a skater succeeds if 3 spots can be achieved by somebody placing below her. A skater fails if 3 spots can only be achieved by somebody placing above her.

So when Rachael finished 5th, somebody placing below her could have restored the 3rd spot. Therefore Rachael succeeded. When Kimmie finished 7th, nobody finishing below her could have restored the 3rd spot. That would have required a 6th place finish. Therefore Kimmie failed.

Obviously if the 3rd spot is restored, then both skaters succeeded.

Kimmie would have had to place on the podium for the US to keep the three spots that year, based on how the other US team members skated. Based on the fact that she placed last in the GPF and bombed at Nationals placing 7th, I really don't see how that would have been possible. I was actually surprised she placed 7th.

RD
11-12-2010, 06:34 PM
^ Same here.

Once the champions couldn't go, of course we were doomed. No way we would keep 3 spots with a struggling Meissner, a self-destructing Liang and an unproven Wagner.

And then in 2009, when Czisny and Flatt were named to the team, of course there was uproar over the former. Events proved these skeptics right as Czisny bombed herself out of the top 10 and immediately forced us to ditch any hopes of sending three to Vancouver next year.

Major difference: Czisny took practically ALL the heat in 2009. in 2008, IIRC I think it was not much of a surprise to anyone, so the fallout wasn't as bad.

Then, Nagasu in 2010- why people didn't jump all over her like they did Czisny is still somewhat of a :confused: ...but then again, it might have been the Oly year. I see posters beginning to doubt Nagasu after COC, though, so I think if it happens again in 2011 she will take heat as well.

pinky166
11-12-2010, 09:19 PM
Then, Nagasu in 2010- why people didn't jump all over her like they did Czisny is still somewhat of a :confused: ...but then again, it might have been the Oly year. I see posters beginning to doubt Nagasu after COC, though, so I think if it happens again in 2011 she will take heat as well.

The difference was that despite Mirai's FS, she still beat Rachael overall, and came in 7th place, which is pretty respectable. Further, she had an amazing SP which put her in 1st place. Her FS had a lot of mistakes but the score she earned for it was nearly identical to the score Czisny earned in her Worlds FS in 2009. I think the difference is, Mirai at least had one good program at Worlds, while Alissa did not, she had a nightmare SP and a mediocre LP where she had 3 triples ratified. She also came in 11th, we all know she was capable of finishing higher. Mirai on the other hand, 7th wasn't that much of a surprise, it was a pretty good result for someone making their Worlds debut. Had Alissa come in 7th, I think most of us would have considered it a job well done, and we would have gotten 3 spots back. However, she didn't come in 7th and she wasn't exhausted from competing in the Olympics right beforehand and she didn't have to deal with the pressure of being in 1st after the SP and it wasn't her Worlds debut. There are a lot more excuses/reasons to explain Mirai's LP at Worlds than there are for Alissa's performances at Worlds. She had nothing to lose going into the FS and she still didn't really deliver.

Cheylana
11-12-2010, 09:39 PM
I think the difference is that Alissa was thought to "cost" us an extra spot at the OLYMPICS, the be-all, end-all in skating. Whereas Mirai only "cost" us an extra spot at next year's Worlds, not quite as big a deal.

stjeaskategym
11-12-2010, 10:37 PM
She's done. It may be harsh, but it's true. Look at the way Cohen's and Hughes's "comebacks" turned out. The next generation, I believe, is FINALLY ready to step up and carry US ladies skating.

I agree that Kimmie doesn't seem to be competing any time soon, but there was nothing at all bad about Sasha and Emily's comebacks. Sasha trained seriously for barely half a year and came in 4th at Nationals. Emily disappeared at college, but came back to compete quite respectably at Nationals, beating some of the top names. I'm sure both of those ladies are very proud of themselves for making the comebacks that they did.

Personally, I enjoy seeing the veteran skaters compete against the newer girls. I don't like seeing the "older generation" wiped out in favor of a newer one. I like that we get to see both at the same time. After all, the "next generation" so far has been outscored by the veteran Czisny. Age doesn't really matter.

AliasJohnDoe
11-12-2010, 10:52 PM
Did the 2008 team of Meissner, Wagner and Liang lose 3 spots for the US "in the first place"?...YES
Did the 2009 team of Flatt and Czisny regain 3 spots for the US?....NO
Did the 2010 team of Flatt and Nagasu regain 3 spots for the US?....NO


This..."Oh, but Flatt and Nagasu were tired from the Olympics" excuse is getting tiring and is outright laughable. Every single person at Worlds was tired from the Olympics. There was no excuse for Nagasu and Flatt NOT getting the 3 spots back. They didn't get the job done. They are to blame this time around. Plain and simple.....OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!

stjeaskategym
11-12-2010, 11:46 PM
....was Kimmie's departure and "not having her heart in it" purely and only about physical injuries and the distraction of college?
The mind can be such a tricky thing.


She had some bad injuries and missed the GP season, and then didn't receive a bye to Nationals even though she had been assigned to two GPs. That was probably especially annoying considering she had missed Nationals the year before. On top of that, she was training in Florida despite being enrolled in school all the way up in Delaware. With the injuries, the shaky training conditions, and the very long stretch of time with no competitions, it's not surprising she kind of disappeared completely. At least she gets to do some shows now, but it's still sad. I wonder if things could have been a little better if she had continued to train in Delaware instead of going to Florida.

geod2
11-13-2010, 12:02 AM
Did the 2008 team of Meissner, Wagner and Liang lose 3 spots for the US "in the first place"?...YES
Did the 2009 team of Flatt and Czisny regain 3 spots for the US?....NO
Did the 2010 team of Flatt and Nagasu regain 3 spots for the US?....NO


This..."Oh, but Flatt and Nagasu were tired from the Olympics" excuse is getting tiring and is outright laughable. Every single person at Worlds was tired from the Olympics. There was no excuse for Nagasu and Flatt NOT getting the 3 spots back. They didn't get the job done. They are to blame this time around. Plain and simple.....OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!


I count 6 heads on that list.
They owe us all 6 heads .....on a platter.....right now!

:lol:
. .

Indra486
11-13-2010, 12:25 AM
She had some bad injuries and missed the GP season, and then didn't receive a bye to Nationals even though she had been assigned to two GPs. That was probably especially annoying considering she had missed Nationals the year before. On top of that, she was training in Florida despite being enrolled in school all the way up in Delaware. With the injuries, the shaky training conditions, and the very long stretch of time with no competitions, it's not surprising she kind of disappeared completely. At least she gets to do some shows now, but it's still sad. I wonder if things could have been a little better if she had continued to train in Delaware instead of going to Florida.

Delaware was no longer a healthy training environment for Kimmie. I think she had either taken a semester off or was doing online courses when she was in Florida but her training environment in Florida was much better for her. No one really knows what went down when she left her Delaware rink other than the spare details she gave. I think she had hinted in a pre-Skate America 2008 interview that her training sessions felt like a competitive performance as opposed to just being a training session. Kimmie didn't elaborate any more on that and at all with things between Pam.

Indra486
11-13-2010, 12:27 AM
I count 6 heads on that list.
They owe us all 6 heads .....on a platter.....right now!

:lol:
. .

Not even King Henry VIII went that far. :lol:

RD
11-13-2010, 12:41 AM
The difference was that despite Mirai's FS, she still beat Rachael overall, and came in 7th place, which is pretty respectable. Further, she had an amazing SP which put her in 1st place. Her FS had a lot of mistakes but the score she earned for it was nearly identical to the score Czisny earned in her Worlds FS in 2009. I think the difference is, Mirai at least had one good program at Worlds, while Alissa did not, she had a nightmare SP and a mediocre LP where she had 3 triples ratified. She also came in 11th, we all know she was capable of finishing higher. Mirai on the other hand, 7th wasn't that much of a surprise, it was a pretty good result for someone making their Worlds debut. Had Alissa come in 7th, I think most of us would have considered it a job well done, and we would have gotten 3 spots back. However, she didn't come in 7th and she wasn't exhausted from competing in the Olympics right beforehand and she didn't have to deal with the pressure of being in 1st after the SP and it wasn't her Worlds debut. There are a lot more excuses/reasons to explain Mirai's LP at Worlds than there are for Alissa's performances at Worlds. She had nothing to lose going into the FS and she still didn't really deliver.

You raise some good points. HOWEVER-

Nagasu could have MEDALED at that Worlds! People seem to forget that. The standard for our ladies used to be "get on the podium"...what happened? All of a sudden 7th is good enough? I can understand if 7th was the best she could do WHEN SHE SKATED HER BEST, but she didn't! Now I'm not saying this to dog on her, but I'm just stating that it really is no more valid to make excuses for Mirai as it is to make excuses for Alyssa...


I think the difference is that Alissa was thought to "cost" us an extra spot at the OLYMPICS, the be-all, end-all in skating. Whereas Mirai only "cost" us an extra spot at next year's Worlds, not quite as big a deal.

True. That's probably part of it- emotions certainly ran high that season, that's for sure. I was critical of Cohen's so-called "comeback" and I immediately got jumped on by the Sashafans. :lol:


I agree that Kimmie doesn't seem to be competing any time soon, but there was nothing at all bad about Sasha and Emily's comebacks. Sasha trained seriously for barely half a year and came in 4th at Nationals. Emily disappeared at college, but came back to compete quite respectably at Nationals, beating some of the top names. I'm sure both of those ladies are very proud of themselves for making the comebacks that they did.

Personally, I enjoy seeing the veteran skaters compete against the newer girls. I don't like seeing the "older generation" wiped out in favor of a newer one. I like that we get to see both at the same time. After all, the "next generation" so far has been outscored by the veteran Czisny. Age doesn't really matter.

I didn't say Cohen's and Hughes' comebacks were BAD, per se. I just said they didn't work out the way the skaters hoped. In fact, I give them credit for trying.

Yes, it makes things "interesting" when a veteran is able to keep up with (or surpass) the young'uns, but remember that we're talking about a veteran with a noted HISTORY of starting out well and fizzling near the end. Let's see how Alyssa does at TEB (and GPF, if she is able to make it) and then we'll know.


Did the 2008 team of Meissner, Wagner and Liang lose 3 spots for the US "in the first place"?...YES
Did the 2009 team of Flatt and Czisny regain 3 spots for the US?....NO
Did the 2010 team of Flatt and Nagasu regain 3 spots for the US?....NO


This..."Oh, but Flatt and Nagasu were tired from the Olympics" excuse is getting tiring and is outright laughable. Every single person at Worlds was tired from the Olympics. There was no excuse for Nagasu and Flatt NOT getting the 3 spots back. They didn't get the job done. They are to blame this time around. Plain and simple.....OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!

EXACTLY! Agreed 100%!!


...well, maybe 97.8% :P the "off with their heads part"...then again, now that I think about it...:P

RD
11-13-2010, 12:55 AM
Back to Meissner- someone mentioned that Delaware didn't work out for her. She seems to be back over there now, so things seem to be alright. I don't buy that she plans to make any sort of return...I think it'll be just like Kwan, Cohen, etc. where she won't make any formal retirement announcement but instead will just fade away....oh wait. :P