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Tinami Amori
10-26-2010, 12:48 AM
(does Erik works for his father)
Fortunately he does not.....:D


That explains a lot, especially if the nastiness started or escalated after the father retired.

Sounds like the best medicine possible! (to go back to work)

I think father was considering going back to work for a while, he probably will. We hope it will make him a more pleasant person in his conversations with Erik, but it does not eliminate Father’s proven tendency to be nasty when uncomfortable with his life…. He is in his 70’s now, he goes back to work, Erik has 15+ years of peace, but then what happens when he turns 90+ an can no longer work?

My mother retired too 5 years ago…. And drove me nuts. So I put her to work, to keep data bases for parts inventory and basic bookkeeping, and to run errands in my business…. And when she gets tired, I send her 4 times a year on vacations to Europe or some sunny resort….. And she still drives me nuts….. (not by being mean, but from being restless when not busy working or traveling).



If he is also narcissistic……

I have to read about “narcissistic parents” issue. I know “narcissistic person/lover”, but can’t imagine how can a parent be a “narcissist” towards own child. If anything a “good/successful/attractive/etc” child is part of “narcissistic pride”….. right?

Any examples of “narcissistic parent” would be appreciated…..

Darn... parent/child stuff is hard... I am so glad to be just a "doggy-kitty-pet-mother"......
:cat::dog::sheep:

cruisin
10-26-2010, 01:09 AM
I have to read about “narcissistic parents” issue. I know “narcissistic person/lover”, but can’t imagine how can a parent be a “narcissist” towards own child. If anything a “good/successful/attractive/etc” child is part of “narcissistic pride”….. right?

Yes, a good/successful/attractive child is a source of pride for a narcissistic parent. But, it has to be about the parent. It is - look at how wonderful my child is, it's all because of me. The narcissistic parent also competes with the accomplished child. They want them to b more successful, but resent them at the same time. They need to hear - I am this successful and good and attractive because of all that you did for me.

Another possibility is, you said that Eric does not work in the same field as his father. Was his father a professional and did he expect Eric to follow in his footsteps? If he did and Eric did not do as his father wanted him to, his father could have become resentful. After all, what more could a narcissistic parent want than their child to want to be just like them?

Tinami Amori
10-26-2010, 01:59 AM
Yes, a good/successful/attractive child is a source of pride for a narcissistic parent. But, it has to be about the parent. It is - look at how wonderful my child is, it's all because of me. The narcissistic parent also competes with the accomplished child. They want them to b more successful, but resent them at the same time. They need to hear - I am this successful and good and attractive because of all that you did for me.

Another possibility is, you said that Eric does not work in the same field as his father. Was his father a professional and did he expect Eric to follow in his footsteps? If he did and Eric did not do as his father wanted him to, his father could have become resentful. After all, what more could a narcissistic parent want than their child to want to be just like them?

To the last paragraph - this is one family which is happy with "what the son does for a living"....... :)

Re "narcissistic parent" issue in the first paragraph...

Thank you! That has lots of relevance to another family situation with a distant relative and her daughter, where mother hardly ever praises her teenage daughter for achievements and accomplishments while paying good money for all sorts of daughter’s “embetterments” and venues of such accomplishments.

I will read more about “narcissistic parents” on e-net. But if I may trouble you a little longer, can you please tell me if these are symptoms of “narcissistic parent” or something else?

Erik’s mother…… :D (I better know now how much trouble both of his parents are).

Erik temporarily lives with his parents. His old house was on a land-slide, his new house will not be ready for 4-6 months. He wanted to rent, but parents were offended, so he moved in (against his better judgment).

Parents have 3 rooms upstairs. Only one has a bed, their bedroom. The other two rooms are father’s office and mother’s hobby room. Down-stairs there is formal sitting room and small family room with a sofa-divan. Erik sleeps in the small family room on the divan and loves that divan, because it’s HARD-surface and works well for Erik’s back.

Mother insists on buying Erik a “proper bed to sleep on, she can’t have her own child sleeping on a divan like a visitor”. Erik wants to buy and pay for his own bed. Mother won’t have it, “she will not let her son to pay for furniture in their house, plus she can use this new bed for guests later and plans to keep it”.

Erik gives her computer print out of a futon-platform and a thin futon-mattress, stating it’s the only kind of bedding his back can tolerate. He explains “long and hard” why it should be “that kind of hard-wood futon-platform and very thin mattress”.

Mother says “no problem, got it”, and when the bed arrives, the one she pays orders and pays for, it’s a soft fluffy COUCHETTE, without any reinforcement in the middle, full of foam-stuffing, which sinks deep down even if one puts a hand on it.

Erik says “it will kill my back. I asked for hard-wood platform and gave you a foto”. Mother says “strange! I thought that’s want you wanted…… “.

FOOD,
When Erik moved in, he asked how the food will be handled. He wanted to buy his own food or eat out, and to give his share for basic staples. Mother would not have it – she is in charge of food in the family, Erik will give her money “into the pot” and she will shop and cook for the family as always. Erik has his own food preferences, and informed his mother of it.

Now the mother. She wakes him up at 7 in the morning “my dear, I am going to food shopping today, do you want white bread or wheat bread”. Erik – “as always – wheat bread”.
The mother calls him at work, INTERRUPTS HIM: “I just want to make sure, since you’re so picky white bread or wheat bread?”.

Then she calls him again on mobile phone into the car, when she is in the store: “White bread or Wheat Bread”? – “WHEAT!!!!!! As always!!!!”.

Dinner time. White bread on the table. No wheat bread. “Where is wheat bread?”.

Likely answer #1: “I did not get any this time, the one that was on the shelves did not look too good”……

Likely answer #2: “Oh, I must have misunderstood, I thought you wanted white….. “.

This happens with 50% of all food and house-hold item issues. She’ll call him 10 times a day, asking “what he REALLY wants”……. And then get the opposite….. claiming “he told her to get this, not the other” or “not finding what he wanted”.

Is she “narcissistic” or something else?

my little pony
10-26-2010, 02:04 AM
apparently Erik is my brother

cruisin
10-26-2010, 02:52 AM
Is she “narcissistic” or something else?

I'm not a doctor, but I see her more as treating him like a child and having some control issues. The bed problem is tough. If she is buying a bed, that will stay in her home, she really should buy what she wants. I realize that is not really the issue, since Eric didn't want her to buy the bed in the first place. I suggest that he simply go back to sleeping on the sofa or get a board and place it between the box spring and mattress. As for the food, yeah, she's a little overbearing, but I'm not getting mean from your description.

His father is classic narcissist. Everything is about him. How it makes him look, how it makes him feel. Nothing is as important as his needs and his view of how the world is supposed to work.

I could go back and re-read all of the posts, but I forget - is Eric married? Was he married? Does he have kids? You said that he moved into his parents house, and from your description it sounds like it's just him, not he and his family. Could his not being married or some related issue be a problem for his parents?


apparently Erik is my brother

:lol: I think fathers tend to like that more with sons than daughters. My father was much tougher on my brother than he was on me. Of course I was never allowed to do anything, being the oldest and a girl. And I was expected to be perfect and excel. Maybe that's why I'm OCD :lol:. My brother was always made to feel that he couldn't measure up. My father expected me to be a teacher, that's what women were supposed to do, 40 years ago. He was rather beside himself, when I went into advertising. But, I did well and he was fine. My brother, however, was never who my father wanted him to be. He always criticized him, though my brother is wildly successful. Many times more successful than my father was. My father was proud, but angry that my brother didn't constantly tell him that he (brother) did well because my father was so brilliant and did so much for him. Mostly what my father did was alienate my brother. I see this in so many men (fathers). It's sad.

taf2002
10-26-2010, 03:13 AM
I think both of Erik's parents are nuts. If I was him I would run far far away.

Southpaw
10-26-2010, 03:23 AM
It's like reading modern day Chekhov. Or something.

MINAM
10-26-2010, 03:32 AM
His father wants to show that he still has control over his son. That's my take on it.
I can sympathize with Erik.

"Whatever… you have your truth, I have mine." I loathe these words.

Tinami Amori
10-26-2010, 04:49 AM
I think both of Erik's parents are nuts. If I was him I would run far far away.

That’s up to Erik, but for now I am certainly considering running away……. :D. That’s a lot of luggage in one family… :D


As for the food, yeah, she's a little overbearing, but I'm not getting mean from your description. .
Sorry about that. His mother makes a big fuss and takes up a lot of his time to find out, day to day, what Erik wants “for dinner”. She asks him 10 times “what kind of bread he wants”, “does he want “chocolate cream pie” or “lemon cream pie”, etc… If he tells her “I don’t want white-bread, I want wheat, and then I don’t want chocolate cream, I want lemon cream” the Mother will somehow end up with the opposite of what he asked for: “White Bread and Chocolate Cream” and will either insist he asked of it, or that “what he wanted was not available”.

Imagine someone chasing after you all day, asking “do you want vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream”, and every time you said “Vanilla”, but in the end the person brings you “Chocolate” and says “But you asked for Chocolate”….. That’s almost “passive aggressive”….. imho.

His father is classic narcissist. Everything is about him. How it makes him look, how it makes him feel. Nothing is as important as his needs and his view of how the world is supposed to work.


I could go back and re-read all of the posts, but I forget - is Eric married? Was he married? Does he have kids? Could his not being married or some related issue be a problem for his parents? .
Erik is divorced many years ago after a short marriage, lived and worked overseas for many years, had a long serious relationship there. I am pretty sure he does not have children, at least not in USA.

Parents had nothing to do with his first divorce, as far as I know, and had little connection with him when he was out of the country. He is just not keen on being married; there are few of us in our group who were never serious about marriage and never wanted to have kids, and we all stick together, the last of the Mohicans. I don’t know enough about psychology to know for sure if parents had any effect on our choices not to have families, but I don’t have any reasons to suspect that they did.

Erik is frustrated because he thinks his parents are being intentionally passive aggressive (as he calls it). Father twists the truth, and Mother does exactly the opposite of what Erik asks her, while pretending to do what he asked.



Mostly what my father did was alienate my brother. I see this in so many men (fathers). It's sad.

I don’t understand the logic in such behavior. Parents want their children to love them. That’s a given. So they should do things that draws children to them, not the opposite, right?

I want my dog to love me. I try to pet her on the head, she loves it. I try to pet her on the nose – she snarls at me. So I pet her on the head……. very simple. If I want my dog to love me – I do what pleases her, not what pushes her away…. Right?

If I tell my mother “no red meat in my food”, there will be NO red meat in my food….. Or I will not share food and meals with her……

If my mother tells me “I don’t like color Red”, I will not buy her gifts and clothes with color red, or she’ll put my gifts in the garbage can….

What bothers me is we are not talking about Major Life Decisions or Ideological Cosmic Differences between “Parent” and “Child”…. We are talking about simple personal preferences of a Child, which is not that hard to follow for the Parents.

If my friend likes pink roses and dislikes yellow, I’ll buy pink, why would I care, when either bunch costs $18.99……

If Erik does not want Father to bring up the past, and wants Mother to buy wheat bread – why not shut up about the past and buy him wheat bread…. Unless she owns a white-bread bakery, it’s no skin off her nose…… and her son will like her more.

I just don’t understand why one must be au contraire to relatives, when it does not cost you anything to be agreeable…..


"Whatever… you have your truth, I have mine." I loathe these words.
These words are what disturbed me the most and made me enquiry on the subject!

I was never so insulted in my life by a close family friend Elder, as when I showed Erik’s father cancelled check for the bike I bought from Erik for Felix’s birthday (my boyfriend at the time) and a foto of Felix in a cast (after he crushed it), and fotos of the crushed bike for the insurance company....and the Father still insisted that it was Erik who crushed the bike….

I am sticking a check and foto in his face “Look who bought and crushed the bike”, and he tells me “you have your truth and I have mine”….. and that’s when I decided to abuse the FSUer with this story…. :D.


It's like reading modern day Chekhov. Or something.
Of course, :duh: my title of this topic! “Fathers and Sons”…… I am brainwashed…. :o

essence_of_soy
10-26-2010, 05:03 AM
It sounds like his father is the type who can never be pleased. Maybe he is always looking for something to complain about and with his son he has to often make things up. Maybe your friend should take it as a compliment that he has to bend the truth to even find something to complain about.

After reading some of the examples Tinami Amori wrote about, I want to whap Erik's dad in the head as well.

But seriously, BigB08822 is right. Some people cannot be pleased. Unfortunately, when they're a parent, and the child, no matter their age, by taking on the role of people pleaser, it's a lose - lose situation or a job for Dr Phil.

My advice is, know their limits and know your own. You can't expect people to be who you want them to be, only who they are.

Do your best to avoid situations that cannot be negotiated without walking away from them worse for wear.

Erik, move NOW. Staying with your folks no matter how much money you may be saving, isn't worth losing your sanity for.

In the mean time, there is a great book called Toxic Parents (http://www.amazon.com/Toxic-Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Reclaiming/dp/0553381407/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288066846&sr=8-1) which Eric should consider reading.

Squibble
10-26-2010, 05:57 AM
It's like reading modern day Chekhov. Or something.


Of course, :duh: my title of this topic! “Fathers and Sons”…… I am brainwashed…. :o

Turgenev, actually. :COP:

Tinami Amori
10-26-2010, 07:42 AM
In the mean time, there is a great book called Toxic Parents (http://www.amazon.com/Toxic-Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Reclaiming/dp/0553381407/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288066846&sr=8-1) which Eric should consider reading.

Thank you. I’ll get one. The good of it all, is that Erik, knowing that his friends are trying to help him with the issue, feels less violent towards Father.

Oh, my "Toxic parents"......I have to digest how "parents" can be "toxic".... I guess it take all kinds..... 2 days of having a cold and not working, and the stuff I learn about "parents"..... Gosh knows what other dissapointing personality issues there are out-there in our parents...

I better go back to work, and let crazies be crazy, because soon it will be like reading Medical Encyclopedia - you read about each symptom - and think "you got it".... and if you had nothing, before your read it, you’ll end up with “something” just from the stress.


Turgenev, actually. :COP:

Brainwashed, but wired to the wrong book shelf.....:D

cruisin
10-26-2010, 02:00 PM
Imagine someone chasing after you all day, asking “do you want vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream”, and every time you said “Vanilla”, but in the end the person brings you “Chocolate” and says “But you asked for Chocolate”….. That’s almost “passive aggressive”….. imho.

Could his mother have Alzheimer's or some other form of dementia? Or has she always been this way?


I want my dog to love me. I try to pet her on the head, she loves it. I try to pet her on the nose – she snarls at me. So I pet her on the head……. very simple. If I want my dog to love me – I do what pleases her, not what pushes her away…. Right?

Yes, right and rational.


If I tell my mother “no red meat in my food”, there will be NO red meat in my food….. Or I will not share food and meals with her……

But, think about what you said here: If your mother put red meat in your food, you would not eat it. Eric seems to go along with his parent's nonsense. It seems they are all twisted up in a dysfunctional relationship. The parents twist and control and Eric allows it. He needs to become the adult and say no. And as someone else said, he should move out now. And tell them why.


What bothers me is we are not talking about Major Life Decisions or Ideological Cosmic Differences between “Parent” and “Child”…. We are talking about simple personal preferences of a Child, which is not that hard to follow for the Parents.

Taken to a much smaller degree, this concept is not so unusual. Parents spend years taking care of their children. They want them to be independent, but they also like to feel needed and sometimes it's hard to stop being a care giver. Parent's like to think they know what is best for their kids. There is nothing wrong with that unless it gets out of control or doesn't stop when the child is a full adult. I still say something to my kids if I feel a decision they make might not be a good one. they, then make their choice. Sometimes I am right, sometimes they are. The difference between me and a parent like Eric's, is that I always hope they are right, allow them the freedom to make a choice, even if it's a wrong one, and I'm supportive when it is wrong.


I was never so insulted in my life by a close family friend Elder, as when I showed Erik’s father cancelled check for the bike I bought from Erik for Felix’s birthday (my boyfriend at the time) and a foto of Felix in a cast (after he crushed it), and fotos of the crushed bike for the insurance company....and the Father still insisted that it was Erik who crushed the bike….
I am sticking a check and foto in his face “Look who bought and crushed the bike”, and he tells me “you have your truth and I have mine”….. and that’s when I decided to abuse the FSUer with this story…. :D.

Dad really has a problem beyond being nasty.




Oh, my "Toxic parents"......I have to digest how "parents" can be "toxic".... I guess it take all kinds..... 2 days of having a cold and not working, and the stuff I learn about "parents"..... Gosh knows what other dissapointing personality issues there are out-there in our parents...

Just bear in mind that even the most well intentioned parents can sometimes be toxic. They are not mean or deliberately controlling. They sometimes just don't know how to let go. I think most parents can admit that it's hard to not want to take care of your "children", even when they are grown. They are always your babies. But there is a time to stop treating them as babies, for the sake of everyone's mental health.

timing
10-26-2010, 03:15 PM
I was never so insulted in my life by a close family friend Elder, as when I showed Erik’s father cancelled check for the bike I bought from Erik for Felix’s birthday (my boyfriend at the time) and a foto of Felix in a cast (after he crushed it), and fotos of the crushed bike for the insurance company....and the Father still insisted that it was Erik who crushed the bike….

I am sticking a check and foto in his face “Look who bought and crushed the bike”, and he tells me “you have your truth and I have mine”….. and that’s when I decided to abuse the FSUer with this story…. .


:eek: This would have really disturbed me. Does Erik have siblings? Are they treated the same?



Erik, move NOW. Staying with your folks no matter how much money you may be saving, isn't worth losing your sanity for.

This is really good advice. I hope he takes it.



But, think about what you said here: If your mother put red meat in your food, you would not eat it. Eric seems to go along with his parent's nonsense. It seems they are all twisted up in a dysfunctional relationship. The parents twist and control and Eric allows it. He needs to become the adult and say no. And as someone else said, he should move out now. And tell them why.

If Eric's mom has always been this way then Erik needs to set some conditions and remove himself when his parents ignore them.

If Eric's mom has not always been this way then he should encourage her to see a doctor. Medications can create problems with short term memories as can dementia and Alzheimer's disease. The description of her repeatedly asking the question and remembering the wrong answer reminded me of my memory problems on one medication - changing medications gave me back my short term memory.

Southpaw
10-26-2010, 04:26 PM
Turgenev, actually. :COP:

I was thinking more along the lines of Uncle Vanya. Or something.