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essence_of_soy
08-14-2010, 12:53 PM
This is all 30 years ago, so don't count on my remembering all this stuff perfectly. ;)

The fact that we're talking about Elaine 25 years since she competed, is an indication in itself how much impact she had on us and the sport.

DORISPULASKI
08-14-2010, 04:02 PM
Yes, indeed! And to think that one of the hits on Elaine that Peggy, and sometimes Dick as well, had against Elaine was that she wasn't contributing anything to the progress of the sport because they did not view what she was doing as sufficiently artistic.

olympic
08-14-2010, 05:28 PM
I went back and watched Elaine's '94 Nats performances. Very moving :)

I've got one for you. Who wins in a match-up of Witt '94 v. Zayak '94? They were the two lady vets that came back for the '93 - '94 season. I think Zayak would've taken it based on improved presentation and the steady 3loop, although Witt still probably had a small edge on the presentation.

DORISPULASKI
08-14-2010, 05:43 PM
Katarina's SP to Robin Hood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB7ZJqGlVWI

I love this program, but you've got to admit that Kat's posture was no better than Elaine's, and 3t2t is significantly easier than 3lp2t. Plus Kat's locked hips had her doing a butt eagle instead of a decent spread eagle. And Elaine's layback was better. Neither of them had particularly wonderful spirals, but Elaine held more of hers longer, and Elaine's 2a was better than Kat's. Kat had the better camel positions, and I love the way her 2F was choreographed to the music. The combo spins were a tossup for me. I'm definitely willing to give Elaine the tech mark. I give Kat the presentation mark because of the coherent nature of the program though. However, Kat's presentation is not all that much better than Elaine's, so it's pretty much a tossup overall for me.

Elaine's US Nationals SP 1994
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kOLzvxxm8
.

judgejudy27
08-14-2010, 06:23 PM
I went back and watched Elaine's '94 Nats performances. Very moving :)

I've got one for you. Who wins in a match-up of Witt '94 v. Zayak '94? They were the two lady vets that came back for the '93 - '94 season. I think Zayak would've taken it based on improved presentation and the steady 3loop, although Witt still probably had a small edge on the presentation.

If you are talking about how the results would have panned out Witt would have beaten Zayak easily and by alot of placings. Remember Witt placed 7th at the Olympics ahead of Tonya Harding and Josee Chouinard. Zayak couldnt even beat Kwan or Bobek at Nationals, and neither especialy Bobek even skated well there. I dont know where she would have finished at the Olympics but she would have done well to even make the top 15 when one considers how Kwan or Bobek skating as they did at Nationals would have done at the Games.

Witt was a 2 time Olympic Champion and legend of skating returning to competition. She is not scored on the same scale as others. Her short program in Lillehammer wasnt any better than Lenka Kulovana or Charlene Von Sayer who were 11th and 14th, but she is Katarina Witt. Zayak would definitely not be afforded the same treatment.

orbitz
08-14-2010, 06:59 PM
Her [Witt's] short program in Lillehammer wasnt any better than Lenka Kulovana or Charlene Von Sayer who were 11th and 14th, but she is Katarina Witt.

Technical consideration aside, I thought Witt's Robin Hood SP at Lillehammer was one of the best presented SP that I've seen, and it was certainly her best SP ever. She would've beaten Elaine's national SP with that performance. The LP was an issue for Witt, but if she had landed all of her planned triples minus the loop she would have scored better than Elaine's 94 LP.

judgejudy27
08-14-2010, 07:15 PM
Technical consideration aside, I thought Witt's Robin Hood SP at Lillehammer was one of the best presented SP that I've seen, and it was certainly her best SP ever. She would've beaten Elaine's national SP with that performance. The LP was an issue for Witt, but if she had landed all of her planned triples minus the loop she would have scored better than Elaine's 94 LP.

Well I never disputed Witt would have very easily outplaced Zayak at the Olympics. I very much enjoyed seeing Elaine back at Nationals and skating refreshing performances but if we get down to the reality of things that she couldnt beat a 13 year old Kwan and a disaesterous Bobek at Nationals indicates she wouldnt have had any chance to be top 10 in Lillehammer let alone the top 6 or 7.

floskate
08-14-2010, 07:55 PM
Technical consideration aside, I thought Witt's Robin Hood SP at Lillehammer was one of the best presented SP that I've seen, and it was certainly her best SP ever. She would've beaten Elaine's national SP with that performance. The LP was an issue for Witt, but if she had landed all of her planned triples minus the loop she would have scored better than Elaine's 94 LP.

Erm, wouldn't it be fairer to compare a hypothetical Witt LP with a hypothetical Zayak one rather than the reality of what she laid down at Nationals? Who's to say Elaine wouldn't have landed 5 triples had she made it to Lillehammer?

DORISPULASKI
08-14-2010, 08:16 PM
This is, of course, a fantasy game, so we get to assume:

1. Elaine actually had the support of USFS (which she wouldn't have had) so that she and Kat were each the number one skaters from their country. Not true of course for Elaine. Or maybe that they skated anonymously from the countries of Fantasia and Ipsofacto.
2. Kat and Elaine both get to land their full complement of jumps without falls. (Unlikely for Kat. She didn't land her full jump card even in 1988.) Not likely for Elaine in 1994 either.

Once you venture into the realm of fantasy, some rules have to be set :) .

For reference, here's Kat's LP to Where Have All the Flowers Gone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zFIashnc8

3t2t
2S (bychoice, I think)
2A into flying camel (nice)
footwork & drama into 2F into combo spin (slow, but intentionally so, I think)
footwork, slow with drums and goosestepping (very stylish)
attempt at 3Lp (hands down)
3T nice height and air position
mess up on 2S intended to be 3S
Spin to end.



Here's Elaine's LP to Debussy Reverie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zFIashnc8
Split jump 3t2t
2a into combo spin (should have had more revs)
2s (planned triple, but she made this choice)
Spiral into 3Lp
camel onto outside edge
Ina Bauer into 2A into layback (again I'd like more revs)
f/w into 3 toe walley
backbend 3t? 3S?
spread eagle into 2a, turn out
scratch spin

olympic
08-14-2010, 08:38 PM
This is, of course, a fantasy game, so we get to assume:

1. Elaine actually had the support of USFS (which she wouldn't have had) so that she and Kat were each the number one skaters from their country. Not true of course for Elaine. Or maybe that they skated anonymously from the countries of Fantasia and Ipsofacto.
2. Kat and Elaine both get to land their full complement of jumps without falls. (Unlikely for Kat. She didn't land her full jump card even in 1988.) Not likely for Elaine in 1994 either.

Once you venture into the realm of fantasy, some rules have to be set :) .

For reference, here's Kat's LP to Where Have All the Flowers Gone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zFIashnc8

3t2t
2S (bychoice, I think)
2A into flying camel (nice)
footwork & drama into 2F into combo spin (slow, but intentionally so, I think)
footwork, slow with drums and goosestepping (very stylish)
attempt at 3Lp (hands down)
3T nice height and air position
mess up on 2S intended to be 3S
Spin to end.



Here's Elaine's LP to Debussy Reverie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zFIashnc8
Split jump 3t2t
2a into combo spin (should have had more revs)
2s (planned triple, but she made this choice)
Spiral into 3Lp
camel onto outside edge
Ina Bauer into 2A into layback (again I'd like more revs)
f/w into 3 toe walley
backbend 3t? 3S?
spread eagle into 2a, turn out
scratch spin

^ I dunno. Still see Zayak on top. She offered more technically. Witt was barely able to land triples in '94.

ETA - I just finished watching Witt in '94. only 2 triples [2 3toes] in the long and obvious technical mistakes, even if the choreography was wonderful. I really think Zayak could've taken her

judgejudy27
08-14-2010, 09:25 PM
This is, of course, a fantasy game, so we get to assume:

1. Elaine actually had the support of USFS (which she wouldn't have had) so that she and Kat were each the number one skaters from their country. Not true of course for Elaine. Or maybe that they skated anonymously from the countries of Fantasia and Ipsofacto.


Witt wasnt the #1 skater from East Germany in 1994 either. Tanja Szewcenko was.

Squibble
08-14-2010, 09:51 PM
East Germany didn't exist in 1994. ;)

orbitz
08-15-2010, 01:10 AM
Witt was barely able to land triples in '94.


Witt's 3t in the SP was gorgeous. She also landed a great 3s at Europeans that year. The triples hadn't deserted her in 94 but by then I think her limit was two good triples per LP.