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floskate
08-07-2010, 10:42 AM
Regarding figures, Elaine's injured foot was the left so if the figures were drawn on the left foot she was always going to struggle. On the right she could lay down some decent tracings.

Skateboy watch her Worlds debut in 1980. The jump content for the time is just insane and frankly there's plenty of girls competing today who can't match it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7wV32eQCBs

kwanfan1818
08-07-2010, 11:21 AM
The interviewer (might have been Button?) said most of the US girls said Peggy Fleming. Elaine said oh no, she wanted to be like Sonja Henie, she won more than one Olympic gold medal and was a movie star. After that, Peggy never had a nice word to say about Elaine.
I can understand preferring Flemings' style and admiring her gold medal, but were no young skaters in the interim inspired by Janet Lynn?

orbitz
08-07-2010, 01:08 PM
I think Peggy Fleming felt threatened by Elaine. The American Olympic champion after Peggy was Dorothy Hamill who, like Peggy, had the same content (no triples). Suddenly Elaine comes along with all these triples--the exact opposite of Peggy, spunky and athletic.

Peggy won three World titles and a gold in 68. You seriously think she felt "threatened" by some up and coming skater almost 20 years later? Um, Ok. Peggy must also felt threatened by Linda Fratianne and her triples then.


Peggy had a very hard time saying anything positive about Elaine. After Elaine's Olympic LP (the skate of the night IMO), Peggy said "not great, but strong." Yeah right, Peggy.

Peggy had pleasant thing to say about Elaine's skating. She would say something like "Elaine had worked very hard on her artistic impressions. And she has improved ..... just a little bit."

judgejudy27
08-07-2010, 01:08 PM
I'm sure Roz did 3t-2t as the SP jump combo, which was the same combo Elaine did.

Yeah I am pretty sure both did the same jumps in the SP. And Sumners actually did a clean short with the 3 toe combo which is probably the only time she has ever done this, too bad she didnt do it in Sarejevo as well.

skateboy
08-07-2010, 09:01 PM
Skateboy watch her Worlds debut in 1980. The jump content for the time is just insane and frankly there's plenty of girls competing today who can't match it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7wV32eQCBs

Wow, in 1980! Thanks!

olympic
08-07-2010, 09:02 PM
Yeah I am pretty sure both did the same jumps in the SP. And Sumners actually did a clean short with the 3 toe combo which is probably the only time she has ever done this, too bad she didnt do it in Sarejevo as well.

Witt won the SP in Helsinki '83. Did Roz make a mistake in the SP or was Witt '83 simply better?

judgejudy27
08-07-2010, 09:08 PM
Witt won the SP in Helsinki '83. Did Roz make a mistake in the SP or was Witt '83 simply better?

Sumners I think stepped out in the middle of her triple combo and finished only 4th in the short behind Witt, Leistner, and Vodorezeva.

skateboy
08-07-2010, 09:09 PM
Peggy won three World titles and a gold in 68. You seriously think she felt "threatened" by some up and coming skater almost 20 years later? Um, Ok. Peggy must also felt threatened by Linda Fratianne and her triples then.


Dorothy Hamill did the same content as Peggy, Linda only did two triples in her program (I think) and she didn't win the Olympics. So she didn't "dethrone" Peggy as the beautiful Olympic champion. Suddenly Elaine shows up doing 6 and 7 triples in a program--something no lady ever came close to before, and everyone was talking about Elaine as the next big American star and possible Olympic champion. Yeah, I think it really bothered Peggy.

Dick Button always had great things to say about Elaine's accomplishments, but I think, as an innovator of technical content in his day, he appreciated it. You could tell that Peggy would rather remove her own appendix with a knife and fork than say anything good about Elaine's skating. What other reason could there be except jealousy??

judgejudy27
08-07-2010, 09:20 PM
Why wouldnt Peggy feel more threatened by Sumners though. By 84 Zayak was a real long shot for the Olympic Gold, and Sumners was more similar to the pretty princess mold of Fleming and was more likely to eclipse her in popularity as a more modern and current version of herself if she won which going into the 84 Olympics was a real possability unlike for Elaine by that point.

I dont think Peggy was ever jealous of Elaine. She simply did not like her skating. Should we say Peggy was jealous of Kira Ivanova and Claudia Leistner since she thrashed their skating endlessly as well. Or shouldnt she have been most jealous of someone like Michelle Kwan who all but makes people forget about the Peggy Flemings of the past, but who Peggy adored. While I dont like how the USFSA and some of TPTB treated Elaine in her later amateur years either not everyone has to or is going to like her skating. Peggy should have atleast complimented her good points more and she was downright nasty at times which wasnt needed, but she also did not have to like Elaines skating. I am sure there are others who genuinely dont find her their cup of tea either.

skateboy
08-07-2010, 09:25 PM
Why wouldnt Peggy feel more threatened by Sumners though. By 84 Zayak was a real long shot for the Olympic Gold, and Sumners was more similar to the pretty princess mold of Fleming and was more likely to eclipse her in popularity as a more modern and current version of herself if she won which going into the 84 Olympics was a real possability unlike for Elaine by that point.

Maybe because Peggy could always be credited with creating the pretty princess image that all ladies Olympic champions aspire to? Janet, Dorothy, Linda and Roz carried on the tradition.

Peggy trashed Elaine from the beginning, when everyone else was suddenly wowed by such a young phenom who could change the face of ladies' skating.

judgejudy27
08-07-2010, 09:27 PM
Maybe because Peggy could always be credited with creating the pretty princess image that all ladies Olympic champions aspire to? Janet, Dorothy, Linda and Roz carried on the tradition.

Peggy trashed Elaine from the beginning, when everyone else was suddenly wowed by such a young phenom who could change the face of ladies' skating.

Peggy Fleming loved Midori Ito from the start. And Katarina Witt isnt exactly a pretty princess, more like a diva in a red dress with a ferocious killer instinct, but one who actually skates and hits positions like she never took a ballet class in her life just as much or more than someone like Elaine, and Peggy loved her as well. Or do they not count since they arent American.

Honestly I think Peggy just genuinely did not like Elaines skating and felt no bones about expressing it. She doesnt strike me as the attention whoreing type who is easily jealous of future skaters success. Just one with a strong opinion and views, and little courtesy and respect for others feelings at times.

skateboy
08-07-2010, 09:43 PM
Honestly I think Peggy just genuinely did not like Elaines skating and felt no bones about expressing it. She doesnt strike me as the attention whoreing type who is easily jealous of future skaters success. Just one with a strong opinion and views, and little courtesy and respect for others feelings at times.

You may be right, although I notice as the years went by, Peggy's commentating changed. Sometime around the 1988 Olympics. She went from being outright nasty to basically praising every skater, even when they skated like crap. I remember thinking at one point, "What happened to Peggy? She used to be such a b**tch. Now she's like everyone's guardian angel!"

(Still, I do wonder about the "American" thing. Peggy didn't have much good to say about Debi Thomas, but drooled over Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Same with Nancy Kerrigan.)

olympic
08-07-2010, 09:47 PM
Honestly I think Peggy just genuinely did not like Elaines skating and felt no bones about expressing it. She doesn't strike me as the attention whoreing type who is easily jealous of future skaters success. Just one with a strong opinion and views, and little courtesy and respect for others feelings at times.

Agreed. I think that Elaine was the first major US title-winner since Peggy to not effect a princess, doll-like style on the ice.

Sure, someone like Dorothy was strong and fast but something about her was still uber-feminine on and off the ice. Linda F. was doing triples but appeared petite, slim and doll-like, and was probablu coached on general 'lady-like' demeanor by FC. So, it probably really stood out that Elaine was a great athlete who didn't try to conform herself to that princess image, and being the first one, Peggy really noticed that.

You wouldn't see another generally more athletic v. artistic competitor win for the US until Debi Thomas in '86. But, I think the fact you had an African-American lady win being such great news, no one bothered to 'pick' at the tiny things re her artistry [which would improve].

Finally, Tonya Harding rose to the top a few years later, who was more the athlete with incredible skills, but everyone knows the USFSA felt about her the same way as they did about Elaine...And Tonya didn't help her cause but that's been the subject of several threads already, but pre-whack, she wasn't loved for also eschewing the pretty princess image.

Coco
08-07-2010, 10:07 PM
You may be right, although I notice as the years went by, Peggy's commentating changed. Sometime around the 1988 Olympics. She went from being outright nasty to basically praising every skater, even when they skated like crap. I remember thinking at one point, "What happened to Peggy? She used to be such a b**tch. Now she's like everyone's guardian angel!"



So true!!! She mellowed :)

I remember when she said Debi's 3-3 was "easier" because doing two of the same kind of jumps meant they had the same rhythmn. HA! That was in January 1988.

I wonder if she holds American skaters to a higher standard, and when one of them doesn't achieve that standard, it's hard for her to hold herself back from ripping them a new one.

Bitchy Peggy was loads of fun to listen to, but later years Peggy was so much more approachable. I'll never forget her call of Sasha's 2006 Worlds free skate. She sounded desolate.

Dick Button used to be extremely critical of and condescending to Peggy. I bet that was no fun. He toned it down a bit in the Kwan era.

bardtoob
08-07-2010, 10:55 PM
(Still, I do wonder about the "American" thing. Peggy didn't have much good to say about Debi Thomas, but drooled over Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Same with Nancy Kerrigan.)

:2faced: Peggy was known to favor skaters that were coached by Nicks and the Fassis while Uncle Dick tended to favor skaters that had coaches with roots that branched out from the Skating Club of Boston.