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judgejudy27
08-04-2010, 06:17 PM
It's a triple toe walley from what I can tell. That's interesting regarding the loophole you remember reading about as Midori Ito did 2x-3t and 3t-3t at 1984 Worlds with clearly no deduction from the judges so it must have been allowed at the time.

Even as late as 1992 Nancy Kerrigan was attempting 3 triple toes in her long program (well in theory as she pretty much always popped atleast one) but with 1 of them being a toe walley. So regular triple toes and toe walleys must have a distinction that allows you to do more triple toes this way.

floskate
08-04-2010, 07:00 PM
Even as late as 1992 Nancy Kerrigan was attempting 3 triple toes in her long program (well in theory as she pretty much always popped atleast one) but with 1 of them being a toe walley. So regular triple toes and toe walleys must have a distinction that allows you to do more triple toes this way.

I don't think there is a distinction now, it's just regarded as an entry variation much like a mohawk instead of a 3-turn into a triple flip or triple sal for example although I could be wrong on this.

I learned the toe loop the conventional way in the short time I skated as a kid which obviously takes off from a back outside edge but I'm sure I read some old skating tome which mentions that a toe walley takes off from a back inside egde? Also confusing the issue was the European habit of calling a toe loop a cherry flip :lol:

caseyedwards
08-04-2010, 07:25 PM
What a sharply written article. I mean the attitude everywhere! And it's by E.M. Swift.

skateboy
08-04-2010, 08:12 PM
The distinction between a toe loop and a toe walley is SUPPOSED to be similar to the flip and the lutz. With a flip you take off from an inside edge; a lutz from the outside edge.

A "loop" is back outside edge to back outside egde, hence the term "toe loop," when done as a toe jump. A "walley" is back inside edge to back outside edge, so a "toe walley" takes off from a back inside edge, landing on a back outside edge.

IceKween
08-04-2010, 08:18 PM
Roz comes across as an ignoramus, and her mother and coach as witches.

I loved this quote from Roz: "With fad diets you lose the fat between the muscle and the bone, which is called adipose. That's the fat you want. Don't laugh, I want to tell you this. What I lost is that other kind, the fat you don't want."

Um, okay? Clearly Roz is now well acquainted with adipose so maybe she realizes it's all the same. But it shows you that athletes should not really delve into topics that require some knowledge or education unless they've actually studied it.

The whole quote about Roz's mom saying that NOW all of a sudden they want to talk to Roz even though she's been competing as long as Elaine just wreaks of skatemom from hell. Elaine accomplished a hell of a lot more than Roz up to that point. But skatemom couldn't possibly rationalize that.

floskate
08-04-2010, 08:18 PM
The distinction between a toe loop and a toe walley is SUPPOSED to be similar to the flip and the lutz. With a flip you take off from an inside edge; a lutz from the outside edge.

A "loop" is back outside edge to back outside egde, hence the term "toe loop," when done as a toe jump. A "walley" is back inside edge to back outside edge, so a "toe walley" takes off from a back inside edge, landing on a back outside edge.

Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. But the current system certainly doesn't recognise this and I would be interested to know if there was a commonly held distinction between the two jumps and when exactly they 'merged' them? By that guideline, Zayak was never in violation of the Zayak rule I don't think. :lol:

gkelly
08-04-2010, 10:11 PM
I think at some point in the 1980s they did make a decision to explicitly consider toe loop and toe walley the same for purposes of that rule. But that may have been later than 1983, which was the first year of the rule.

Polymer Bob
08-05-2010, 01:43 AM
Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. But the current system certainly doesn't recognise this and I would be interested to know if there was a commonly held distinction between the two jumps and when exactly they 'merged' them? By that guideline, Zayak was never in violation of the Zayak rule I don't think. :lol:

Is a walley the same as a waltz?

skateboy
08-05-2010, 01:52 AM
Is a walley the same as a waltz?

No, a waltz is a half revolution jump from forward to backward.

A Walley is the same as a loop, only taking off from a back INSIDE edge (rather than outside).

orbitz
08-05-2010, 02:25 AM
The toe-loop and toe-walley became one jump, because the majority of skaters during the 80s that were supposedly doing toe-wally were really taking off from an outside edge.

A ccw skater normally enters a toe-walley from a left forward outside 3, switch skating leg so that the right leg is now the skating leg and is on an inside edge, and the left leg pick behind to vault into the jump. However, if you look closely at the skating leg after the leg switch, 99.9% ofthe skater remained on an oustide edge. I have to take a look at Elaine's toe-walley in slow motion to make sure, but I don't think she ever did a true toe-walley.

bardtoob
08-05-2010, 08:15 AM
Interesting article.

Here is an postscript written about 13 years later about the issues Elaine had with her weight.

http://aussieskates.com/zayak/web/ryan_articles.htm

This is such a sad article. She only took up skating to rehab her foot, which was half cut off by lawn mower, then years later she is being pushed around by her parents because of her weight during a growth spurt because they wanted her to be a 1 and 1/2 footed World Champion Figure Skater :huh: . . . even when she could still do the triple jumps and improve her spins, it was not enough :confused:

MR-FAN
08-05-2010, 10:05 AM
Roz's inside ina bauer into 2A was gorgeous, difficult and unique to her

Tiffiny Chin also did a gorgeous ina bauer into 2A at the same competition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KicgdGdICHc&feature=related

3-minute mark

judgejudy27
08-05-2010, 01:19 PM
One thing that does strike me is how pro Sumners that Peggy Fleming is. I think Fleming was devastated when Sumners didnt win the Olympic Gold in 84. Fleming is so cold to Elaine. The way she talked about her in her book was horrible.

I would need to see the scores of the LP to see if they were fair. I would probably have scored them like this though:

Zayak- technical 5.8, artistic 5.7
Sumners- technical 5.7, artistic 5.9

I would have put Sumners ahead in the LP but it is close.

orbitz
08-05-2010, 01:44 PM
Tiffiny Chin also did a gorgeous ina bauer into 2A at the same competition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KicgdGdICHc&feature=related

3-minute mark

Roz's inside edge Ina Bauer into the 2A was more difficult than the more common outside edge IB-2A that Tiffany did. I've not seen anyone else performed Roz's move since 83.

olympic
08-05-2010, 09:51 PM
One thing that does strike me is how pro Sumners that Peggy Fleming is. I think Fleming was devastated when Sumners didnt win the Olympic Gold in 84. Fleming is so cold to Elaine. The way she talked about her in her book was horrible.

I would need to see the scores of the LP to see if they were fair. I would probably have scored them like this though:

Zayak- technical 5.8, artistic 5.7
Sumners- technical 5.7, artistic 5.9

I would have put Sumners ahead in the LP but it is close.

I agree with you. Elaine should've had the technical edge [the 3t - 3t seq., nice layback, and the beautiful 3loop midway thru the LP in early '83 is noteworthy] with Sumners winning out on the artistic mark. Do you recall the tech marks in the competition? I seem to remember that it wasn't close...