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View Full Version : Does Mirai Nagasu have the talent to catch/pass Mao or Yu Na?



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olympic
08-01-2010, 02:58 PM
You can't fault Lepisto for working within a system and being rewarded. Although, the issue I have is not PCS related, but that she is not penalized more heavily for her obviously intended triples becoming doubles. Perhaps that is what Smarts1 was originally referring to?

judgejudy27
08-01-2010, 03:10 PM
I agree. I think if a skater goes out clearly planning to do jumps as triples, is practicing so, has done so all year, and then are doubling out all these jumps they should receive -GOE on them.

museksk8r
08-01-2010, 03:34 PM
I agree. I think if a skater goes out clearly planning to do jumps as triples, is practicing so, has done so all year, and then are doubling out all these jumps they should receive -GOE on them.

COP is a judging system where Mao Asada and Yu-Na Kim can skate right through a planned triple, never leaving the ice, and receive no penalties, like at the '07 GPF SP and at the '09 TEB LP. That's a problem too!

bek
08-01-2010, 03:50 PM
COP is a judging system where Mao Asada and Yu-Na Kim can skate right through a planned triple, never leaving the ice, and receive no penalties, like at the '07 GPF SP and at the '09 TEB LP. That's a problem too!

You can't compare one error from Yu-na with a program that still included 5 triples including a difficult 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe to Lepisto landing attemping 3 triples even if one was a 3toe/3toe. I do think missing an element in the short should be more penalized though.


For me Lepisto getting rewarded for that kind of technical difficulty bothers me. And Judy the issue is Laura landed the same amount of triples she normally averages. I get that Laura has great choregraphy, skating skills and transitions but clearly the system doesn't reward jumps enough if she can get away with that kind of jumping content. Maybe they need to have a technical difficulty mark in PCS because I truly feel that that numbers don't really factor in jumps well. And I really think the system needs a place where the entire technical whole of a program can be evaluated.

I thought Yu-na's PCs were to high at Skate America and at worlds and I'd love to see a system that penalizes error ridden programs in both marks.

olympic
08-01-2010, 03:54 PM
I agree. I think if a skater goes out clearly planning to do jumps as triples, is practicing so, has done so all year, and then are doubling out all these jumps they should receive -GOE on them.

I recall that during the 2010 US pairs comp., I/B lost a spot to Vancouver and they got neg. GOE when he obviously doubled the SBS 3toe, but it was otherwise clean. That doesn't seem to happen to Lepisto. Maybe it's a 'favorability' thing.

bek
08-01-2010, 04:15 PM
I recall that during the 2010 US pairs comp., I/B lost a spot to Vancouver and they got neg. GOE when he obviously doubled the SBS 3toe, but it was otherwise clean. That doesn't seem to happen to Lepisto. Maybe it's a 'favorability' thing.

If one partner does a triple toe and another does a double toe there's a major unison issue and it should get negative GOE. Its not comparable to Lepisto's situation.

skatesindreams
08-01-2010, 04:23 PM
I think that she has the potential to challenge for the top level.
Staying inljury free is key, as others have said.

Mastering competition nerves is something that comes with experience.
Time will give her that.

What she does have, which most of the "challengers" lack, is the magical "it" factor; and Frank Carroll's expertise - two great advantages.
I believe that they will serve he well in seasons to come.

olympic
08-01-2010, 04:50 PM
If one partner does a triple toe and another does a double toe there's a major unison issue and it should get negative GOE. Its not comparable to Lepisto's situation.

Thanks. didn't think of that

smarts1
08-01-2010, 08:00 PM
You can't fault Lepisto for working within a system and being rewarded. Although, the issue I have is not PCS related, but that she is not penalized more heavily for her obviously intended triples becoming doubles. Perhaps that is what Smarts1 was originally referring to?

Yes, that's what I meant. I mean like half the board goes crazy whenever Carolina scores 56+ for PCS for every LP meltdown she has, so why shouldn't we complain about Laura Lepisto's 60+ PCS she got at Worlds for a craptastic program? Even more I hate Laura's wind-milly arms--just look at her ugly LP step sequence, the arms are just flying everywhere and does nothing much for the choreography; it's just a blatant distraction.

One thing I have hated about this system is that it just doesn't reward difficult content enough. I mean there is ONLY a two point difference between a triple toe and a triple lutz. How many ladies can do a triple lutz when everyone else in the field can do a triple toe? I was kind of disappointed that the lutz and the flip (in fact giving this jump LESS points? :huh:) weren't given extra points during the ISU congress this year as many skaters can't do them and as shown by Laura Lepisto, it really isn't worth it to do that kind of difficulty.

I mean to think someone doing a triple toe-triple toe and a triple loop (ie Laura Lepisto) in the short program has a HIGHER base value when compared to someone doing a triple lutz-double toe and a triple flip is very sad and ridiculous.

Autumn_girl
08-01-2010, 09:10 PM
I mean to think someone doing a triple toe-triple toe and a triple loop (ie Laura Lepisto) in the short program has a HIGHER base value when compared to someone doing a triple lutz-double toe and a triple flip is very sad and ridiculous.

ITA. Laura is a lovely skater with a great posture, skating skills, choreography, etc. But I don't think it's right that girls with full set of triples and FS with 5-6 clean triples finish behind her when she lands only 2-3 triples in the FS. And now, when the base value of doubles is higher, she doesn't even have to try triple lutzes, she can land only 2-3 triples (toeloops or salchow) and then do doubles and still win a medal. It's sad

bek
08-01-2010, 09:48 PM
ITA. Laura is a lovely skater with a great posture, skating skills, choreography, etc. But I don't think it's right that girls with full set of triples and FS with 5-6 clean triples finish behind her when she lands only 2-3 triples in the FS. And now, when the base value of doublesum is higher, she doesn't even have to try triple lutzes, she can land only 2-3 triples (toeloops or salchow) and then do doubles and still win a medal. It's sad

And then we hear there's more to skating than jumping lalala. The thing is that's true there is more to skating than jumping but the fact is that jumps are a HUGE part of single's skating. And it takes practice to get those jumps consistent. Its not right to act like it doesn't/shouldn't matter.

olympic
08-01-2010, 11:18 PM
Well, looking at the bright side, skaters like Mao [for the 3x], Miki [3z-3l] and the whole bevy of American Gals when they get tight [Mirai, Rachael, Ashley, Caroline] are going to benefit more for attempting 1/4 - 1/2 turn ur'd triples and getting 70% of the base value, as opposed to those jumps being completely downgraded to doubles. This may more than make up for Lepisto's advantage to slighty increased value for doubles

pinky166
08-01-2010, 11:30 PM
ITA. Laura is a lovely skater with a great posture, skating skills, choreography, etc. But I don't think it's right that girls with full set of triples and FS with 5-6 clean triples finish behind her when she lands only 2-3 triples in the FS. And now, when the base value of doubles is higher, she doesn't even have to try triple lutzes, she can land only 2-3 triples (toeloops or salchow) and then do doubles and still win a medal. It's sad

She WAS only 6th in the LP at Worlds though, Miki was boring, Phanuef got low levels on all her spins, Carolina's jumps were shaky and she was being punished for her meltdown of a season and they still all beat Laura in the FS. So really, Laura is not at fault here.

smarts1
08-02-2010, 03:35 AM
She WAS only 6th in the LP at Worlds though, Miki was boring, Phanuef got low levels on all her spins, Carolina's jumps were shaky and she was being punished for her meltdown of a season and they still all beat Laura in the FS. So really, Laura is not at fault here.

Yes, but Paneuf and Carolina still only beat Laura by like a point or two,even will all the triples they landed.

pinky166
08-02-2010, 04:00 AM
Yes, but Paneuf and Carolina still only beat Laura by like a point or two,even will all the triples they landed.

True. But they are both incredibly inconsistent and had been getting low FS scores all season so the judges probably weren't comfortable giving them scores that were too high, but Laura where she scored so well at the Olympics, it seemed more reasonable I guess. Her FS score in Vancouver was about 12 points higher than at Worlds, and even there she doubled one jump, so in comparison, I guess it is fair, although in all honesty I thought her FS score in Vancouver was a little too high for what she did (not way too high, but 115-120 may have been more reasonable IMO).