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Japanfan
07-26-2010, 12:29 AM
I distinguish between performance ability and musicality and would say that Yagudin was the better performer. He reached out to the audience and he also had skated with tremendous passion and confidence. IMO that is different than the innate sense of musicality which Honda had - which was subtle and a bit introverted.

berthesghost
07-26-2010, 04:02 PM
just my 2 cents:

Surya & Phillippe: highly entertaining performers who unfortunately couldn't really skate. Horrible tech on both. They're lucky to have gotten as far as they did, but also unlucky because their powerful fed pushed them down everyone's throats. In another era they would have either had the time to develop properly, or never been heard from.

Fumie and Honda: not the best, just the best that Japan had at that time. I love Fumie, but one only has to look at the Sato and Shiz bookends to see what Fumie was missing. Honda was a good 'B level' skater, but his medal at 02 world totally "wuz robbed" Abt imho.

Speaking of Abt, is he not on this list because it's too obvious?

Kadavy is interesting because OT1H she always bottled it. Even her 87 worlds career highlight had flaws. But OTOH she often got the shaft even when skating well, like at 88 Olys SP.

Bowman: I think it's interesting that people obsess non-stop over Evan's skid-axel, trashing him as a mediocre skater, yet Chris, who had the same tech and a much less reliable result, is hailed as the greatest skater to ever live "if only". If hard workers like Evan and Weiss couldn't rid themselves of the dreaded skid, how was lazy Chris going to? It's possible he could have worked harder, and ended up with the same career results.

judgejudy27
07-26-2010, 05:28 PM
I didnt include Abt for the obvious reasons yes. That plus he never even actually medaled at Worlds.

orbitz
07-26-2010, 06:45 PM
just my 2 cents:

Kadavy is interesting because OT1H she always bottled it. Even her 87 worlds career highlight had flaws. But OTOH she often got the shaft even when skating well, like at 88 Olys SP.


Reputations counted a lot back in the days. If Karyn had demonstrated a consistent fierce competitiveness ala Witt from 85 to 88 then the international judges would have shown her more respect. I wonder if Karyn ever skated clean programs with all the planned triples in practices.

Mafke
07-26-2010, 08:27 PM
For Bonaly, she had working against her

- being French (how many French skaters have ever had really good basics? Millot? Fat lot of good it did him)

- being surrounded by people who didn't make it easy to improve those basics (Didier, crazy mother, French fed)

- her own attitude, which was probably shaped by some very nasty, hurtful things were said about her way too publicly (I'm looking at you Sandra Bezic!) this didn't make addressing her basics any easier and probably made it harder

- not being traditionally feminine enough (the biggie - Baiul's faults were just as pronounced as Bonaly's but she was a girly girl and the judges like girly girls)

judgejudy27
07-26-2010, 09:04 PM
Wow I forgot to include Kerrigan who I just remembered actually never won a World or Olympic Gold.

bardtoob
07-26-2010, 09:09 PM
Bowman: I think it's interesting that people obsess non-stop over Evan's skid-axel, trashing him as a mediocre skater, yet Chris, who had the same tech and a much less reliable result, is hailed as the greatest skater to ever live "if only". If hard workers like Evan and Weiss couldn't rid themselves of the dreaded skid, how was lazy Chris going to? It's possible he could have worked harder, and ended up with the same career results.

Let makes something very clear, Chris and Evan do not have the same Axel technique. Chris thoroughly had Frank's technique from age 6 years old but could not land a 3A because he was too heavy to get high enough off the ice because he did not train. Evan has flawed Yump* technique that Frank started tweeking when Evan was about 18 years old, but Evan's svelt build and training normally allows him to pull off the rotations.

* Yump was a term coined by Sonja Henie, which she used to refer to the apparent single axels in her later ice shows but she never referred to them as an axel because half a rotation was on the ice and she left from a LBI. http://www.jacksonskates.com/html/jumphist.html#axel

museksk8r
07-26-2010, 09:48 PM
Nevermind. :P

bardtoob
07-26-2010, 09:55 PM
Museksk8r, I saw that ;)

olympic
07-26-2010, 10:18 PM
[QUOTE]What do you think the following top skaters lacked in their skating that prevented them from winning a World title:

Women:

Surya Bonaly - orphan and stepchild as far as TPTB were concerned. She had what it took to win in '93 but TPTB were NOT having it, as discussed ad nauseum in many other threads.

Fumie Suguri - I just think she was missing that last little bit of oomph and overall packaging that was needed to move ahead of someone like Kwan circa 2002 or 2003.

Joannie Rochette - Unlucky to be skating in the shadow of the great and incredibly gifted Yu-Na (and Mao to some extent). But, as hard a worker as Joannie was, I don't get the impression she naturally flowed or had grace that may have put her past someone like Yu Na or a clean Mao.

Caryn Kadavy - Definitely the most talented of the US ladies in the mid '80s over Thomas, Chin, Trenary. But two things - I don't think she was favored by the USFSA, who seemed to gravitate towards Debi Thomas, and later Jill Trenary. But to her own detriment she was also mentally fragile and fell apart at the wrong times. With the right mental fortitude, she would've been competing with Witt in this era.


Men:

Christopher Bowman - Seriously screwed up in the head. Otherwise, he would've gone toe-to-toe with Browning in the '89 to '92 Quadrennial and would've had a medal in Albertville. He was that talented.

Norbert Schramm - I remember him as Scott Hamilton's biggest competitor but he seemed to disappear in the '84 Olympic year. What happened to him?

Takeshi Honda - Another talented headcase *sigh* Talent-wise, had what it took to go after the Russian duo of Plushenko and Yagudin.

Philipe Candelero - Nothing. I think he maxed out personally and he was lucky to be where he was. Seriously, I think if he would've paid more attention to every aspect of his skating and not 'hammed' it up, he may have fared even better. Some of his jumps were really nice and high IIRC.


Pairs:

Meno and Sand - lacked speed and power. Also gave into nerves on occassion.

Beckhe and Petrov - head case

Selezneva & Makarov - oy. So talented, innovative and athletic, but had the misfortune of skating in the same time frame as V/V and later G/G. But I also feel the Soviet Fed wasn't that interested in them for whatever reason.


Dance:

Drobiazko & Vanagas -country with no ISU pull

Dubreuil & Lauzon - NA team

Belbin & Agosto - you got an hour? :D.

Moniotte & Lavanchy- don't remember much about them.

Rahkammo & Kokko- country with little ISU pull.

Wilson & McCall - In the Soviet era, and during the time of factored placements in Ice Dancing, they were stuck in the bronze medal bubble. Nothing they could've done would've raised them ahead of B/B or K/P

miki88
07-26-2010, 10:35 PM
Joannie Rochette - Unlucky to be skating in the shadow of the great and incredibly gifted Yu-Na (and Mao to some extent). But, as hard a worker as Joannie was, I don't get the impression she naturally flowed or had grace that may have put her past someone like Yu Na or a clean Mao.

Do you think Joannie would have fared better in another era? I am not sure she would been better off in Kwan/Slutskaya era either. Her skating technique is very solid but she also lacks the "it" factor that truly sets her apart from others. She also doesn't help herself by being inconsistent for most of her career.

olympic
07-27-2010, 02:54 AM
Do you think Joannie would have fared better in another era? I am not sure she would been better off in Kwan/Slutskaya era either. Her skating technique is very solid but she also lacks the "it" factor that truly sets her apart from others. She also doesn't help herself by being inconsistent for most of her career.

Some may disagree but I think Joannie could've made a run of it against Slute

berthesghost
07-27-2010, 03:04 AM
Wow I forgot to include Kerrigan who I just remembered actually never won a World or Olympic Gold.Nancy won '93 worlds.
No wait, you're right.
Nancy bombed the LP and Lu Chen won the first of 3 world titles (93, 95 & 96) for being the best skater at that event.
Nancy did get her revenge when she took the gold in Lillehammer and Lulu had to settle for silver.
:hat1:
that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Japanfan
07-27-2010, 09:33 AM
Some may disagree but I think Joannie could've made a run of it against Slute

I think so too.

However, she may have been seen as artistically inferior to Kwan, Cohen, Slute, and Arakawa under 6.0, but the bar during that era was pretty much a few two - although there were a few exceptions (i.e. Arakawa in 2003).

She's one of the skaters that has benefited from CoP. If she had skated two clean programs at Turin she would definitely have contended for the podium.

judgejudy27
07-27-2010, 10:09 AM
The judges loved Irina and gave her very high presentation scores whether she deserved them or not. Presentation is also different than just "artistry", Irina's artistry was less than stellar as far as the true meaning of the word, but in many ways her presentation was quite strong so still scored highly on the 2nd mark, and since she was a judges pet even too high at times perhaps. Joannie who was never a judges favorite and rarely a huge name would definitely not be beating Irina on the 2nd mark under either scoring system. Only the true artiste who are themselves very established like Kwan or Cohen are allowed to outscore even an adequate Irina on the 2nd mark by judges.

Jumps are one of Joannie's strengths, yet Irina was a stronger and more consistent jumper than Joannie. She suffered from nerves in big events which is why she didnt win more than 2 Worlds or an Olympic Gold even though she was favored to, but still was a better competitor in big events than Joannie is. She was definitely a stronger spinner than Joannie even with the occasional travelling (really only on her double Biellmann combination spin sometimes). Her footwork was definitely better than Joannie, and her spirals certainly werent worse. She skated with as much speed and power, probably more at her best.

Anyway those are just my opinions but I personally dont see Joannie taking much of a run at Irina in her prime under any scoring system. It would take an inspired Joannie and a bad Irina for the judges to consider putting her in front I think. Irina was just too well liked by judges who were ready to build her strengths, overlook her weaknesses, and even hold her up for her mistakes, for a non dominant skater like Joannie to be any threat to her in her prime. And since Joannie never skates clean competitions she wouldnt be able to take advantage of Irina's mistakes in big events like people such as Kwan, Arakawa, and even Hughes (under 6.0 where here joke 3/3s were ratified) were able to do. The only one who beat an unclean Irina with her own unclean skate in any major event from 2000 to 2006 was Cohen in Turin.