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View Full Version : Best ever 2 times or more Ladies World Medalist (but no golds and no Olympic medals)?



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Seerek
07-22-2010, 07:57 PM
There are a select few who have multiple world medals but no golds, and also no Olympic medals. Who's the best?

orbitz
07-23-2010, 12:38 AM
Tiffany Chin was the most talented of the group you listed, but she had only one really good year skating-wise in 1984.

dawnie
07-23-2010, 01:06 AM
Tiffany Chin without a doubt. Too bad injuries/muscle imbalance/crazy mom took her out of contention.

Carolina Kostner is very lucky to have her two world medals. She beat Kwan for 2005 bronze by less than a point which was supposed to groom her for an Olympic medal at home. We all know how that one turned out. And don't even get me started on her 2008 silver.

Fumie Suguri also got lucky with her world medals. She won her two bronzes because of Cohen's mistakes and an easy qualifying group in 2003. I guess she deserved her 2006 silver but benefited yet again from Cohen's mistakes. I'm not sure she would have even won over Kimmie had she been clean.

essence_of_soy
07-23-2010, 01:12 AM
deleted

bardtoob
07-23-2010, 01:46 AM
Fumie Suguri also got lucky with her world medals. She won her two bronzes because of Cohen's mistakes and an easy qualifying group in 2003. I guess she deserved her 2006 silver but benefited yet again from Cohen's mistakes.

Errrr . . . Everybody in the field could count on Cohen's consistent mistakes . . . apparently over two Olympic cycles and two scoring systems. Judging Cohen on a total of individual elements did not benefit her anymore than judging her on an overall program.

shady82
07-23-2010, 04:02 AM
Fumie's 2003 Worlds performances may not cut it in most cases for a medal. But Fumie didn't get lucky in 2002 because of Cohen's mistakes. At that time, Suguri was not necessarily an inferior skater to Cohen. If both went clean, Cohen would rank higher simply because of the judges' favor. Many even thought that Suguri should have the SP, over Slutskaya.

Marco
07-23-2010, 05:30 AM
Fumie's 2003 Worlds performances may not cut it in most cases for a medal. But Fumie didn't get lucky in 2002 because of Cohen's mistakes. At that time, Suguri was not necessarily an inferior skater to Cohen. If both went clean, Cohen would rank higher simply because of the judges' favor. Many even thought that Suguri should have the SP, over Slutskaya.

Agreed. Especially taking the programs into consideration, Suguri was clearly the better and more competitive skater in 2002. Too bad about the skate order at SLC (both sp and lp). I really would have Suguri beat Cohen in both programs and overall for 4th place.

Both Cohen and Suguri made some mistakes in 2003. The whole uneven qualifying round situation didn't help but who is to say they would have skated the same in the lp if Suguri wasn't so much ahead in the medal race?

Suguri skated better at Nationals and the Olympics than at Worlds in 2006, and if she had gotten either the flip combo or the sal she would have won. Even as it was I believe she should have higher PCS (compared to Meissner!!!) and won by default. If it were up to me I would probably have the lp ranking as Suguri, Meier, Sokolova, Meissner, Cohen.

Seerek
07-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Both Cohen and Suguri made some mistakes in 2003. The whole uneven qualifying round situation didn't help but who is to say they would have skated the same in the lp if Suguri wasn't so much ahead in the medal race?


I don't recall Suguri's performance in the QR - What would you reckon would have been her placement had she been placed in Group A vs. Group B?

Marco
07-23-2010, 04:55 PM
I don't recall Suguri's performance in the QR - What would you reckon would have been her placement had she been placed in Group A vs. Group B?

I don't remember either, but it couldn't have been better than Cohen who landed 7 triples. IIRC Suguri's all time best record was 6 triples.

judgejudy27
07-23-2010, 06:27 PM
Tiffany Chin IMO. She was a wonderful skater who could have won the 84 Olympics if figures had not existed. Too bad injuries and illness marred her career.

Record wise, consistency, and longevity, it is Suguri, but having seen Suguri and Chin both skate at their best there is no way I would consider Fumie the "superior" skater. Chin had potential to be a World Champion and to beat any skater of her era (I know she never beat Witt but easily had potential to). Fumie did have either.

judgejudy27
07-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Fumie Suguri also got lucky with her world medals. She won her two bronzes because of Cohen's mistakes and an easy qualifying group in 2003. I guess she deserved her 2006 silver but benefited yet again from Cohen's mistakes. I'm not sure she would have even won over Kimmie had she been clean.

With Worlds in Japan I think Fumie would have beaten Sasha at the 2002 Worlds even if Sasha had been close or atleast as close is she is even capable of. Sasha was overmarked at the Olympics in the U.S, benefiting from the home country advantage. It is laughable they were able to potray her as a gold medal contender in SLC with virtually no international pedigree at that point. Suguri had that advantage come Worlds in Japan. Sasha's LP at Worlds had 2 falls as her only mistakes and her marks were tech. 5.2-5.5, 5.5-5.7 presentation. Those werent going to be huge even had she gone clean. Sasha in 2002 wasnt that great yet, poorly choreographed Carmen with hardly any transitional moves, slow, weak stroking, ugly back in her death drop, even worse jumping technique. At the Goodwill Games on neutral ground that season when both skated a clean short and similar long (mistakes wise) Suguri dusted Cohen.

As for the later occasions as bardtoob said as well every top skater of that era could count on Sasha's mistakes. Michelle, Irina, Shizuka, all did as well. She wasnt even capable of clean long programs really.

That said I always thought of Fumie as sort of the best of the 2nd tier of that era, just a notch below the very best. She never once beat Michelle in how many years competing against her. I believe the only time she beat Irina was when she was just returning from her illness. She did often beat Cohen and Arakawa but ended up with a less glittered career overall than both.

I also dont think she would have beaten Meissner at the 2006 Worlds even had she been clean, though if she were squeeky clean then it would have been close. If she did just one triple-triple she would have, but I have never seen her do one in competition.

judgejudy27
07-23-2010, 08:14 PM
It is interesting all the votes for Bonaly. Yet Bonaly was only the 5th best skater (behind Baiul, Kerrigan, Sato, and Chen) of a period people keep saying was weak- 93 to 95. Like I said on another thread the field during that period was in fact extremely deep, it just lacked a dominant all timer leading the way.

bardtoob
07-23-2010, 08:37 PM
Chin had potential to be a World Champion and to beat any skater of her era (I know she never beat Witt but easily had potential to).

:rofl: Midori Ito 1986 Worlds :P and don't forget how she :rolleyes: destroyed Tonya Harding at 1986 Skate America . . .

Tiffany got so much help from compulsory figures that it is ridiculous to even compare her to no political clout all free skating Fumie Suguri.

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I wonder what would have happened if Tiffany Chin had competed in an all free skating format in 1986.

Tiffany Chin (USA) - 1986 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Long Program (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMXjO0mDiI0)
vs
Midori Ito - 1986 World Championships Long Program (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4oZ-Judbac)

Cheylana
07-23-2010, 08:46 PM
It is interesting all the votes for Bonaly. Yet Bonaly was only the 5th best skater (behind Baiul, Kerrigan, Sato, and Chen) of a period people keep saying was weak- 93 to 95. Like I said on another thread the field during that period was in fact extremely deep, it just lacked a dominant all timer leading the way.
On what basis was Bonaly fifth best? I'm not saying she wasn't, but it doesn't seem that cut and dry. Bonaly had some pretty good competitive results: 5-time European champion and 3 consecutive silver medals at Worlds (arguably being robbed of a gold medal at '93 Worlds). Her basics were not so great but she generally showed strong technical jumping content and pushed the envelope by attempting quads and triple-triples. I haven't voted yet, but I think there's a decent argument for saying she was the best of the bunch in this poll.

Seerek
07-23-2010, 09:16 PM
Tiffany got so much help from compulsory figures that it is ridiculous to even compare her to no political clout all free skating Fumie Suguri.

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I wonder what would have happened if Tiffany Chin had competed in an all free skating format in 1986.

Tiffany Chin (USA) - 1986 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Long Program (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMXjO0mDiI0)
vs
Midori Ito - 1986 World Championships Long Program (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4oZ-Judbac)

Interesting how one's results in figures suddenly "improves" over time if you stick around long enough, Tiffany was 14th in compulsories at 1983 Worlds and 12th at 1984 Olympics.... then all of sudden is 2nd in 1985 Worlds and 4th in 1986 Worlds...

FYI, Midori got 5th place the Long program at 1986 Worlds skating in the 3rd to last group (Tiffany was 4th in that segment).