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ciocio
07-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Why isn't anyone entertaining the possibility that Takahashi deserved to win? Who cares about blah vs blaher.

Well...somebody agrees with you.:rolleyes:

"Q - Evgeni, who, in your opinion, is the strongest skater today, you or Olympic Champion Evan Lysaceck?

Plushenko : - Lysacek, of course, is a very good athlete. Poor athletes do not become Olympic champions. But I would not call Lysacek the strongest . Japanese Takahashi, according to my ideas, is much more professional: owns quads, is charismatic, he has a great choreography. That’s the skater of the future.”:encore:

aftershocks
07-14-2010, 07:27 PM
... Plushenko is the original flailing arm and Lysacek the bad copy paste.

Best summing up of all the faux controversy, in less than 13 words even!!! :hat1:


"Evgeni Plushenko was no proper heir to Baryshnikov." Plushenko never wanted to be a heir to Baryshnikov. ...He likes to be sometimes Nijinsky, sometimes a dumb stripper, sometimes a seductive girl, etc. That´s his style, if people expect him to be Nureyev on ice just because he is Russian, they will always be disappointed. :(

:respec:


There are so many beautiful and funny gems of posts on this page of the thread that I'm tempted to print and frame it.

:lol: :cool:



I didn't realize that Plushenko was accepted into the Vaganova school and that he chose figure skating over ballet.

New information to me as well, and probably not well known by most skating fans either. Plushy should write a book too -- his life story is probably fascinating. In one of the early skating vids I watched, the commentators mentioned that Plushy came from a poor family, and thus he was determined to win in a hurry so that he could provide for his family. I think Plushy is an exemplary person and does not deserve all the bad press he has received. Yes, he didn't handle stuff well at the Olympics, but I think it is more the fault of skating judges having held him up so unrealistically high at 2006 Olympics. After the resulting criticism, I think Plushy felt the necessity to come back in 2010 in order to prove he was really the best and could win fair and square. JMHO.


I somehow doubt that Knapp expects all figure skaters to look like John Curry or Baryshnikov ... nor do I think that Plushenko aspires to a classical style. ... although he can be delicate and graceful ...

I don't think Knapp is a good barometer of anything concerning figure skating. It's good to see figure skating mentioned generally in the media, but it ends up being pointless if journalists continue to make numerous errors of fact and interpretation. However, it's par for the course, or business as usual I suppose, especially in online blogs and columns.

IMO, Plushenko does not exhibit delicacy, nor would I call him graceful. He's more sharp, rough-edged, manly, full of bravado and energy (although his nerves and age showed uncharacteristically in 2010 Olympic lp), he has a distinct Russian flair, and he incorporates choreography meant to show feeling and artistry, but it doesn't come close to the delicacy and grace of skaters like Matt Savoie, or Johnny Weir. Nor should it, since as ciocio pointed out, that's not Plushenko's style or intention.


People who say "He's no Baryshnikov (or Nureyev)" usually mean that he lacks grace, finish, and impeccable overall technique ... They're hardly expecting him to do seven revolution jumps with his toe pointed, but they are expecting very good posture, pliant back, stretched knees, neat blades, and the perfect coordination of arms and legs for which Vaganova schooling is known.

Quite a lot to expect from most figure skaters. For example, look at the acclaimed champion, Yuna Kim (extremely poor stretch and flexibility, particularly in her lower body -- she never points her feet, and that's one of her main flaws but only to people who expect that quality in a skater). I'm sure the qualities you mention are very desirous especially for those who love ballet and would like to see skaters perform in a similar aesthetically pleasing fashion. Most figure skaters probably never heard of Vaganova school, unfortunately. Watch videos of the gifted Katharine Healy in that case ... she was a ballerina and a figure skater extraordinaire!


... Najarro in his Absolute Skating interview points how a dancer doing seven pirouettes is extraordinary, while a skater doing seven revs in a spin is not.)

Of course, because the ballet dancer is doing that only with his own muscle power, while the skater is aided by ice and skate blades. BTW, I'm not familiar with Najarro. Can you provide a link to Najarro's Absolute Skating interview? Thanks!

aftershocks
07-14-2010, 07:46 PM
The funny part is that Mishin and other people said that when Plushenko came to train in St. Peterburg he didn't impress throug his jumping abilities or strengh but throug flexibility, posture, elegance,artistry, that's why they tried to convince him to quit FS and prepare for a ballet dancer career. ... My opinion is that he prepared everything in a hurry, that's why his olympic SP was so bad. I didn't like the long either, but it was better.:(

Wow, that's interesting. Hopefully, Plushy will write a book. Maybe it's like what I heard the commentator say when Plushy was performing as a 15-year-old at Worlds ... that Plushenko was focused, determined, and in a hurry to win, in order to provide for his family. Perhaps he was always in a hurry and simply liked skating better than ballet, and wasn't interested in the rigorous ballet barre practice required to become a successful dancer. Maybe he felt there would be more money and international prestige in figure skating?

When Plushy started preparing for the 2010 Olympics, he had first sought assistance from Denis and Melissa Petukhov, but I heard they didn't continue working together.


Well...somebody agrees with you.:rolleyes:

"Q - Evgeni, who, in your opinion, is the strongest skater today, you or Olympic Champion Evan Lysaceck?

Plushenko : - Lysacek, of course, is a very good athlete. Poor athletes do not become Olympic champions. But I would not call Lysacek the strongest. Japanese Takahashi, according to my ideas, is much more professional: owns quads, is charismatic, he has a great choreography. That’s the skater of the future.”:encore:

Again, wow! And, kudos to Plushenko for honest assessment.

gkelly
07-14-2010, 07:55 PM
"In the late 80's, U.S. male figure skaters fell into a rut." Really??? Am I reading that right? Wasn't that the time of Boitano, Bowman, Wylie, or am I just hallucinating? :wall:

I'm guessing what she means is that after Boitano turned pro (the first time) in 1988, the US men didn't win any more Olympic gold medals until 2010. For casual viewers who don't follow the sport except during the Olympics, anything less than Olympic constitutes a rut. Wylie's and Goebel's silver and bronze don't count. Eldredge's and Lysacek's world golds don't count. OGM is the only title worth celebrating.

Obviously, most of us disagree.

museksk8r
07-14-2010, 08:02 PM
Again, wow! And, kudos to Plushenko for honest assessment.

I often find myself endeared to Evgeny's assessment of other skaters. We tend to value the quality in the same skaters. For example, he has complimented the skating of Lambiel, Takahashi, and Abbott in the past, my 3 favorite male skaters currently. I like his personality too even if I think his skating often leaves A LOT to be desired in terms of presentation. His athleticism in the jumps is arguably greater than any other male figure skater in the history of the sport. My favorite ever Plushenko LP was his 2004 program Tribute to Vaslav Nijinsky. I've always found it strange that this was not selected as his LP for one of his Olympic appearances (obviously he would have needed to make it COP friendly for 2006 & 2010 though) as I think it exceeds all of his Olympic skates and I think it's his best program ever, short or long. While I wasn't a fan of his SP or LP this season, you have to admire a man who can come back from a 3 and a half year retirement at the age of 27, win Cup of Russia, win Europeans, and come within less that 1 point of missing out on a 2nd Olympic gold medal. Very impressive!

kwanfan1818
07-14-2010, 08:12 PM
IMO, Plushenko does not exhibit delicacy, nor would I call him graceful. He's more sharp, rough-edged, manly, full of bravado and energy (although his nerves and age showed uncharacteristically in 2010 Olympic lp), he has a distinct Russian flair, and he incorporates choreography meant to show feeling and artistry, but it doesn't come close to the delicacy and grace of skaters like Matt Savoie, or Johnny Weir.
In the exhibition he did I think in 2004, where he did both the male and female parts (and transformed his costume), I thought he showed grace and delicacy when doing the female part. He is one of the best exhibition skaters I've ever seen, because while he can make fun of himself, he doesn't make fun of the material.

The link to reut's interview with Najarro is:
http://www.absoluteskating.com/interviews/2010antonionajarro.html

from the link reut posted in the Joubert & Abbott to Try Flamenco (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=73850&page=5) thread in The Great Skate Debate.

caseyedwards
07-14-2010, 08:16 PM
That was his tribute to pairs skating right? Hilarious.

shine
07-14-2010, 08:54 PM
I think the last skater to truly carry that "Russian flair" was Alexei Urmanov. Kulik was a beautiful skater, but not in the classical, dignified way that Urmanov was. Abt was always a little rough around the edges.
This article posted during the Olympics by Russian journalist Igor Poroshin talks in-depth about Plushenko's skating and his problems. Although I do agree that Plushenko is a skating genius to begin with, but thought it was a fabulous and interesting analysis. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=71949

shine
07-14-2010, 09:01 PM
double post.

senorita
07-14-2010, 11:12 PM
Got to love 'em both. Both so beautiful to watch. Savoie, I just want to hug. Abt, I want to hug very tightly, and then some... yummy

Sandu is one more lost talent, more than Abt. Imagine if Abt was born a little later and was competing after yag/plu years!!!!
savoie's sp in Olympics 2006 was what transitions which serve the choreo should be about, i looooooooooooved it. And he started with a flying spin:rollin:

ciocio
07-15-2010, 07:58 AM
New information to me as well, and probably not well known by most skating fans either. Plushy should write a book too -- his life story is probably fascinating. In one of the early skating vids I watched, the commentators mentioned that Plushy came from a poor family, and thus he was determined to win in a hurry so that he could provide for his family. I think Plushy is an exemplary person and does not deserve all the bad press he has received.

He wrote a biography, unfortunately I could not read it, just a few passages, with the google translator.:rolleyes::D


I often find myself endeared to Evgeny's assessment of other skaters. We tend to value the quality in the same skaters. For example, he has complimented the skating of Lambiel, Takahashi, and Abbott in the past.

Yes, back in 2005-2006, Plushenko complained several times that Lambiel was underscored in the PCS and everybody was considering Joubert as his main rival even Lambiel was a better all-around skater. Hope that everybody knows that Plush has nothing against Joubert , they are on very good terms. :)


I think the last skater to truly carry that "Russian flair" was Alexei Urmanov. Kulik was a beautiful skater, but not in the classical, dignified way that Urmanov was. Abt was always a little rough around the edges.

:encore::respec:


My favorite ever Plushenko LP was his 2004 program Tribute to Vaslav Nijinsky.

In the exhibition he did I think in 2004, where he did both the male and female parts (and transformed his costume), I thought he showed grace and delicacy when doing the female part. He is one of the best exhibition skaters I've ever seen, because while he can make fun of himself, he doesn't make fun of the material.

:cheer2:
Nijinsky is my favorite LP ever and Assisai my fav exhibition ever!:watch:

senorita
07-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Best summing up of all the faux controversy, in less than 13 words even!!!:hat1:
no really, not intention to bash, i think Plushenko's success was /is that he had his completely own style, with all the good and bad that this comes. He had the originality on one side that what you see it is him and you recognize his style by a mile(mullet helps), so it was a case of love him or hate him but then he couldnt leave out his personality when he skated and that costed in choreo and interpretation. In Nijniki maybe, MAYBE, if you see this big german documentary of how the program was created, I think there it was maybe the biggest attempt to leave out his own persona and stick to the character. And even then the original program he trained is different to the outcome late in the season. If you see some of his exhibitions he tends to improvise a lot from show to show, full confidence, or lack of discipline there or both:summer:



I didn't realize that Plushenko was accepted into the Vaganova school and that he chose figure skating over ballet. Thank you for the information.

He was but pretty early, around 11-12 yeaRS old, and that I guess had to do with his flexibility and long arms, at that time you should have seen his bielman by the way, before puberty his leg was vertical to the ground and could do it with both legs:wideeyes:


I somehow doubt that Knapp expects all figure skaters to look like John Curry or Baryshnikov, nor do I think that Plushenko aspires to a classical style. Sth funny, in greece Plushenko has the nickname Nureyev of Ice, but I suppose comes not from any comparisson but from him being Russian and just as popular. Your whole analysis in this thread is wonderful, I just caught up. And i agree,he is not a classic. I wouldnt call him graceful or delicate with the meaning I call Lambiel, and with all the back positions when he lands quads etc, but I like his bodyline for a figure skater, he gets some interesting poses mostly because of his flexible waist and long arms (i dont mean the flail). I so laughed with the perfect coordination of arms and legs, yeah, thats NOT Plushenko :p


In the exhibition he did I think in 2004, where he did both the male and female parts (and transformed his costume), I thought he showed grace and delicacy when doing the female part. He is one of the best exhibition skaters I've ever seen, because while he can make fun of himself, he doesn't make fun of the material.



That was his tribute to pairs skating right? Hilarious. That was Asisyai, it was not a tribute to pair skating, but a tribute to russian pandomime theater, this character was created by Slava Polunin (http://www.slavasnowshow.com/biography-e.htm)

Only a year went by and Polunin's famous clown, Asisyai, was born: This thoughtful, gentle, poetic character came into the world drawing on the poetic sadness of Leonid Engibarov's clownery, the refined philosophising of Marcel Marceau's pantomime, and the humanity and comic poignancy of great Chaplin's films. All of these Polunin considers his major teachers.
Asisyai first appeared before an audience of millions of television viewers in the new year's edition of "Light Blue Flame" in 1980-1981, in a sketch with two oversized inflatable telephones. Here for the first time was heard his dialogue on love, on loneliness, on the longing for human understanding, on the bliss of discovery and the bitterness of loss, which to this day accompanies Polunin's hero - and the clown himself - to his audiences in the most diverse corners of our planet.
Originally Asisyai was many-faced and multi-facetted: he could be gentle and na?ve, but ironic the next minute, or puffed up in full-blown conviction, emitting his invincible "Zya!". So the thought arose, that each facet of his character could grow into a separate personage. This is how the idea for a theatre of clowns was born, where each is different from every other, but recognisable and familiar to every single member of the audience.

Ozzisk8tr
07-15-2010, 11:59 AM
He was but pretty early, around 11-12 yeaRS old, and that I guess had to do with his flexibility and long arms, at that time you should have seen his bielman by the way, before puberty his leg was vertical to the ground and could do it with both legs:wideeyes:


At the same time? If he'd done that in Vancouver I'm sure he would have got the gold.

ciocio
07-15-2010, 12:08 PM
At the same time? If he'd done that in Vancouver I'm sure he would have got the gold.

Maybe he is planning one for Sochi. :D:watch::rofl::2faced:

senorita
07-15-2010, 02:49 PM
At the same time? If he'd done that in Vancouver I'm sure he would have got the gold.

LOL:D yeah with both legs at the same time and while holding a beer on one hand.;):rollin:

I found the vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhxcEzudOuA)with bielman (0.55, 2.14) and where Mishin says when he got him he didnt stand out by jumps.