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kwanfan1818
07-17-2010, 06:53 PM
This is ridiculous. Two performances are part of the competition. They each blew one. Each did well in one. What about Johnny's "heroic" SP performance for the first time on the Olympic ice. What happened to illness not being an excuse, or is that only when Weir is sick?
Lysacek never used it as an excuse. When you end up hooked up to an IV after a performance, sportswriters tend to take notice.


And as any psychologist will tell you, skating when you have something to lose is a million times harder than skating when you have nothing to lose.
Slutskaya almost always skated better when she was in the lead, so that isn't uniformly the case.

That same psychologist would also speak to how easy it would be to give up and collapse after failing in the first program, instead of re-focusing the goal.



He was second in the FS. If he skated better in the SP, a medal would be his, maybe even a silver medal.
He was third in the FS and over 7 points behind Buttle overall, and over 11 points behind Lambiel with silver.

psycho
07-17-2010, 07:11 PM
Lysacek never used it as an excuse. When you end up hooked up to an IV after a performance, sportswriters tend to take notice.

No, actually Lysacek told anyone who would listen about his illness, and called himself courageous in fluff pieces for a long time after that.;) I distinctly remember commentators talking about his illness in Torino during 2006 Worlds and someone in the booth said, "yeah, and he made sure everyone knew about that!"



He was third in the FS and over 7 points behind Buttle overall, and over 11 points behind Lambiel with silver.

Yes, you're right. He was 3rd in the FS, but very close to Buttle. He could have made up those 7 or 11 points with a clean and inspired SP. ;)

Squibble
07-17-2010, 07:11 PM
psycho, I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that the primary problem with the jacket was that it was not even a current or recent Russian national jacket, but a much older Soviet Union jacket.

That's certainly what he wore at the Winter Olympic Games in Turin. http://www.thevancouverite.com/pictures/johnny-weir.jpg

In many people's eyes, he was not just wallowing in Russophilia while representing the United States but also (probably unthinkingly) identifying himself with a repressive, totalitarian regime. While there's not an exact equivalence, one wonders what the reaction would have been if an American Olympic athlete wore a warmup jacket that had a Nazi-era German flag on it.

Also, during the Turin Olympics, where he was supposed to be representing all Americans, he said:


I know that a lot of people, especially the more Republican-style people, are very afraid of what I mean to the sport and what I'm going to say, what kind of revolutionary, crazy things are going to come out of my mouth. Good for them, they should be scared.

http://www.outsports.com/olympics/2006torino/2006dailynotebookfeb15.htm

Can you imagine the hullabaloo if an American athlete said, "I know that a lot of people, especially the more Democrat-style people, are very afraid of what I mean to the sport and what I'm going to say, what kind of reactionary, crazy things are going to come out of my mouth. Good for them, they should be scared"?

kwanfan1818
07-17-2010, 07:14 PM
No, actually Lysacek told anyone who would listen about his illness, and called himself courageous in fluff pieces for a long time after that.;)
Source please? I remember it differently, that he said he was proud of himself for not giving up. I'm not even a fan of his, although he impressed me in Vancouver.

overedge
07-17-2010, 07:25 PM
Yet commentators and journalists alike refer to Evan's stint at the Olympics as "courageous" while Johnny's as "disastrous".

Apparently in your world, all commentators and journalists speak with a single voice and say exactly the same thing.

psycho
07-17-2010, 07:33 PM
In many people's eyes, he was not just wallowing in Russophilia while representing the United States but also (probably unthinkingly) identifying himself with a repressive, totalitarian regime. While there's not an exact equivalence, one wonders what the reaction would have been if an American Olympic athlete wore a warmup jacket that had a Nazi-era German flag on it.

I was born in the Soviet Union, and this kind of narrow-minded thinking really bothers me. Why is it that people around the world are always encouraged to overlook the horrible things US government has done over time and see Americans as a diverse group of people who have so much to offer, yet then the same Americans turn around and do the same thing to other people?


Also, during the Turin Olympics, where he was supposed to be representing all Americans, he said:

One, I see nothing wrong with that quote. It's true. Second, he was representing himself. An American. Not all Americans, because last time I checked, they are not a homogeneous group. He represented a subsection of Americans, just like Evan represented another subsection, and Matt Savoie represented a 3rd group. And in America, people are allowed to express political allegiances and hopefully not get jumped on. Because America is not a totalitarian regime, right?;)


Source please? I remember it differently, that he said he was proud of himself for not giving up. I'm not even a fan of his, although he impressed me in Vancouver.
I don't collect Lysacek fluff pieces, but like I said, Worlds 2006, Marshalls 2006, countless interviews. You can search some old posts, Evan was often teased about the excess of "courage" talk.;)

overedge
07-17-2010, 07:37 PM
You can search some old posts, Evan was often teased about the excess of "courage" talk.;)

And so can you, since you made the claim in the first place. Source?

aftershocks
07-17-2010, 07:59 PM
LOL, REO, it does all get so weary wtf déjà vu after awhile. ... :violin:

...

:watch:



Actually he got 5th. Evan got 4th and that was a nail in the coffin. I think the Torino Olympics was a huge deal in the rest of Johnny's career. Maybe even more than the Federation not being supportive. Before that the Federation was on his ass all the time about being "inappropriate" but they knew he was still their best shot and they gave him grief about the things he said, but I think they still politiked for him. After the LP, the press which had been up his butt and portrayed him as whacky but fun and smart, decided he was a loser homo who cared about shopping more than winning Olympic gold and the public bought into it so much that he got a mountain of hate mail and even death threats. Being the sensitive soul he is, he was thrown for a huge loop. Any 21 year old would be affected and Johnny's biggest hurdle has always been his own head. The next season was a disaster and he lost his National title to Evan. Deservedly so. Now the Federation has what they want. A by-the-book workaholic with no opinions of his own and little public personality. Johnny decides to pull it together. He has a great season until Nats where as Aftershock said he puts in a better performance than Evan. This cannot be tolerated thus the infamous tie. It took a long time for those scores to be posted that night. I will never be convinced there was not quick math going on. So Johnny goes to Worlds and wins the only US medal for which he is left off the World team the next year because he was dog sick at Nat's and still pulled 4th after a successful Grand Prix season. Even people who hold him in derision like Hamilton think he got rooked. The Federation makes sure he gets the nod for Vancouver because they know Ryan is going nowhere (sorry Ryan, I love you) and they don't want to take any chances especially if Jeremy or Evan happen to get sick or hurt. And the rest is underscored history. So to sum up I don't think the Federation are the only villains in the story nor the judges nor the press or the homophobic public but they all played their part.

Thanks for that succinct, insightful summing up, REO! I suppose intelligent, open ... or maybe as Weir critics might say ... "glue-sniffing, Russian-spy ring loving" minds think alike. ;)




... I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that the primary problem with the jacket was that it was not even a current or recent Russian national jacket, but a much older Soviet Union jacket.

Wow, really? ... Guess that explains all the jacket-wearing critiques. :blah:

Heavens to Johnny Weir minor planet! Now, let's nitpick about what year/ era the infamous jacket came from .... :lynch:

Johnny, what possessed you to accept and actually wear at the '06 Olympics that reprehensible Cold War era jacket?! Why didn't you just throw it back in your Russian gift-giving friend's face? You slacker, you ... you indiscriminate, uncompromising gift-taking caught Russian spy-ring ... guilty as charged!!!

attyfan
07-17-2010, 08:02 PM
And as any psychologist will tell you, skating when you have something to lose is a million times harder than skating when you have nothing to lose.


If true, then those who criticize Johnny are simply treating him the same way as other skaters are treated. After all, there are those who claim that Michelle Kwan is a "choker" because of her failures to win the OGM. Why should Johnny be treated differently?

That this psychological issue may well be the true explanation for both of them doesn't alter the fact that people often don't accept psychological explanations in the same way as they accept a documented illness or injury.

Squibble
07-17-2010, 08:08 PM
Second, he was representing himself. An American. Not all Americans

That sounds lovely, but it's not true. Just for starters, listen to the announcer at the Palavela at the start of this video Johnny Weir's Short Program at the 2006 Olympics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ9yzlAiHFc): "Our next competitor, representing the United States of America, Johnny Weir!"

igniculus
07-17-2010, 08:51 PM
Circa 2004-2005, USFS began promoting Evan Lysacek as an up-and-comer with all the goods. Lysacek was primed to move into the front runner spot as long as he continued to prove himself. With his great coach, and his dedication, and the simultaneous explosion of the Blackbook photos, Evan moved past Weir for good.

You kinda make it sound as if Evan was a nobody till he won his first world medal. He's been a 3-time world junior silver medalist, and while many of the top men never won the junior world championship, it's indeed a very nice accomplishment to finish that high on every occasion. In his last season at the JWCH, he was already a junior grand prix final champion and bronze medalist at the 4CC - a senior competition he also won in 2005, a month before his world bronze. So no, sorry, Evan had already great accomplishments at that time and was showing a lot ot promise when "they began promoting him".


psycho, I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that the primary problem with the jacket was that it was not even a current or recent Russian national jacket, but a much older Soviet Union jacket.

That is correct.


I was born in the Soviet Union, and this kind of narrow-minded thinking really bothers me. Why is it that people around the world are always encouraged to overlook the horrible things US government has done over time and see Americans as a diverse group of people who have so much to offer, yet then the same Americans turn around and do the same thing to other people?

As someone, who was born in a country overruled by the Soviet Union, I do see and encounter such thinking. People still have horrible memories about the communist era. My grandfather was forced to a soviet labor camp for 5 years, so I'm personally concerned in the experience. I don't bash Johnny for wearing the jacket, nor do I think he'd try to sympathise with the ideals of CCCP. But I can imagine a lot of people feel differently, because of their experiences, their past fears or losses. I know Johnny was only 20-21 years old back then, but there were enough adults around him, imho, who could have told him to show a little more compassion and put the personal fluff aside, and keep the jacket away. He can wear it at home or at his practices, but when he decides to wear it right in front of the world, he should be prepared for the consequences.

Whatever America does, is irrelevant in this matter, imho. That country does leave a lot of bad impressions too.

psycho
07-17-2010, 09:04 PM
I don't bash Johnny for wearing the jacket, nor do I think he'd try to sympathise with the ideals of CCCP. But I can imagine a lot of people feel differently, because of their experiences, their past fears or losses. I know Johnny was only 20-21 years old back then, but there were enough adults around him, imho, who could have told him to show a little more compassion and put the personal fluff aside, and keep the jacket away. He can wear it at home or at his practices, but when he decides to wear it right in front of the world, he should be prepared for the consequences.

Whatever America does, is irrelevant in this matter, imho. That country does leave a lot of bad impressions too.

First of all, putting people in camps weren't the "ideals" of CCCP. And many countries have moments in their past that may offend someone's sensibilities. That doesn't mean we need to give in to the prejudices. When I see someone in a USA jacket I don't think of the years of slavery or their mistreatment of Natives. I think of their positive accomplishments and contributions to the world. Otherwise we would all just hate each other and be constantly offended.

kwanfan1818
07-17-2010, 09:31 PM
Evan was often teased about the excess of "courage" talk.;)
Where I remember thinking, "If that boy was any prouder of himself, I'm going to barf." But the proud was about not giving up.

judiz
07-17-2010, 09:36 PM
Oh, in Johnny's case it doesn't matter. He may quote whatever reason, people will find something to blame him for. He was injured a month later at Worlds, but still was blamed for being a drama queen, not fighting and all these things.


That is one thing I will always remember when I think of the 2006 Worlds. Johnny had such bad back spasms that he could barely stand up straight and you could see the pain in his face as he took his final bow. He did the quad even though he fell on it 3 times in the warmup and what does Peter Carruthers say "he just needs a good shopping spree" to make him feel better.

psycho
07-17-2010, 11:14 PM
People still have horrible memories about the communist era. My grandfather was forced to a soviet labor camp for 5 years, so I'm personally concerned in the experience. I don't bash Johnny for wearing the jacket, nor do I think he'd try to sympathise with the ideals of CCCP. But I can imagine a lot of people feel differently, because of their experiences, their past fears or losses.

Sorry, I know this is OT, but I have to respond to this again. My great grandfather on my dad's side was tortured and killed by Hungarians during the war. My other great grandfather was killed in combat by Germans. Do I feel my sensibilities offended every time I see someone with a German or Hungarian uniform? Do I cringe when I see a Hungarian or German flag? No. My grandma has Hungarian friends. My dad used to do Hungarian dancing as a kid. We go to a Hungarian store to buy their meat products. My whole family was rooting for Germans to win the World Cup.

I know Johnny was only 20-21 years old back then, but there were enough adults around him, imho, who could have told him to show a little more compassion and put the personal fluff aside, and keep the jacket away.
As for this, well the worst thing the adults around him could have done is pass on their issues on to him. This cycle of hate needs to stop if we ever want to live in a peaceful world. Passing on hatred from generation to generation for something that happened a long time ago is never a good thing. Perpetuating the Cold War mentality is not compassion, it's a vicious cycle.


He did the quad even though he fell on it 3 times in the warmup and what does Peter Carruthers say "he just needs a good shopping spree" to make him feel better.
That was Kurt Browning, not Peter, but yes, I agree with your point.
I guess Johnny didn't have a PR team passing out the memos about his courage like Lysacek had.;)