1984 Pairs Olympic Podium-Long Programs

[Fallcolor]

Placements were fair, but I would have put Baess/Thierbach’s LP in 3rd place, and Selezneva/Makarov’s LP in 4th, there would be a tie, and Baess/Thierbach would have gotten bronze. B/T were cleaner in other areas of their skating than S/M.

If everyone skated clean, my podium would be V/V and B/T in the top 2 for sure, with U/M finishing 3rd. S/M and the Carruthers would fight for 4-5th place.

[judgejudy27]

If everyone had skated cleanly I would have gone with:

1. Underhill & Martini
2. Baess & Theirbach
3. Valova & Vasiliev- great pair but wierd program musically and choreographically
4. Selezneva & Makarov
5. Carruthers


However I suspect if everyone had skated cleanly in both programs the judges placings would have been:

1. Valova & Vasiliev
2. Baess & Theirbach
3. Underhill & Martini
4. Selezneva & Makarov
5. Carruthers


How I had the placings with how they all did actually skate:

1. Valova & Vasiliev- clearly. Sorry I like the Carruthers but V&V even just a bit off are superior technically and artisticlaly to the Carruthers at their best.

2. Carruthers- reward for being the only top pair to skate 2 clean programs.

3. Baess & Theirbach- even with their problems their overall skate was better than the 2nd Russians IMO. I dont see how they lost out to both to Carruthers and S&M on the 2nd mark.

4. Selezneva & Makarov

8. Underhill & Martini- sorry their performances in Sarajevo sucked, especialy their long. They were lucky to even end up as top Canadian pair.

[Fallcolor]

Like i mentioned above, i think Valova/Vassilev and Baess/Thierbach should have been top 2 if they were clean. Why not? They were the best 2 pairs at that event. Artistically the most polished, but even more so, technically, their elements were the hardest. V/V's solo 3t and B/T's throw 3loop should have given them the edge on the first mark.

and of course, U/M in 3rd place. Not sure why they should have deserved first even if clean.

[judgejudy27]

I think U/M wuold have deserved 1st if clean since all their elements outside the jumps were superior to Valova & Vasiliev; and their elements outside the jumps and throw were superior to B/T. B/T were not considered that strong on the 2nd mark, they were always more a technical team. V/V were overrated on the 2nd mark at that point, their program was a mish mash of strange music and choreography. At the 83 Worlds when all 3 skated well many people felt Underhill & Martini were robbed of the gold.

[caseyedwards]

Is it weird to say this is the thread I was hoping for when I posted this topic?!? So much good info!!!!

[floskate]

I think U/M wuold have deserved 1st if clean since all their elements outside the jumps were superior to Valova & Vasiliev; and their elements outside the jumps and throw were superior to B/T. B/T were not considered that strong on the 2nd mark, they were always more a technical team. V/V were overrated on the 2nd mark at that point, their program was a mish mash of strange music and choreography. At the 83 Worlds when all 3 skated well many people felt Underhill & Martini were robbed of the gold.

And many felt that B/T were robbed of the gold that year too, myself included. After V&V skated their LP with errors, yet placed above a virtually clean Baess & Thierbach, the US broadcast had a clip of Kitty Carruthers in the crowd exclaiming;

'They're ahead of Tassilo and Sabine? But that's crazy....CRAZY!!' :lol:

1983 Worlds made it very clear that V&V were being groomed for the OGM and their sbs triple toes seemed to allow the judges to overlook all the other errors. But after a few years of very inconsistent soviet pairs (Pestova/Leonovich, Vorobieva/Lisovsky, Pershina/Akbarov) it's not surprising that all of the soviet political firepower went behind V&V leading into Sarejevo.

[judgejudy27]

And many felt that B/T were robbed of the gold that year too, myself included. After V&V skated their LP with errors, yet placed above a virtually clean Baess & Thierbach, the US broadcast had a clip of Kitty Carruthers in the crowd exclaiming;

'They're ahead of Tassilo and Sabine? But that's crazy....CRAZY!!' :lol:

1983 Worlds made it very clear that V&V were being groomed for the OGM and their sbs triple toes seemed to allow the judges to overlook all the other errors. But after a few years of very inconsistent soviet pairs (Pestova/Leonovich, Vorobieva/Lisovsky, Pershina/Akbarov) it's not surprising that all of the soviet political firepower went behind V&V leading into Sarejevo.

Yeah it seemed V&V were pushed hard to the top out of nowhere mainly on the basis of being the best of one of the weakest groups of Soviet pairs. They were in the right place at the right time. The funny thing is their skating greatly improved over the next 4 years and yet they still found their reign abruptly once Gordeeva & Grinkov emerged.

[olympic]

I didn't get a chance to see '83 Worlds pairs. It sounds like the power of the Soviet Fed in the Pairs domain was too much to overcome.

I also have to admit that as much as I like the gutsiness of the Carruthers', I think they would've been at a disadvantage had B/T, U/M and S/M all skated their best and the American pair would've probably finished 5th. Then again, who knows what they would've attempted in the LP had B/T and U/M gone clean in the SP and they had nothing to lose: a throw 4sal may have been attempted which they were landing in practice. I was surprised when I rewatched their LP that C/C didn't do SBS 2x's [unless I missed something] to try and gain some ground on the top teams.

C/C were 5th in 1980 Olympics, BTW which is where they would've ended up again. C/C may have ended up the B/A of the Pairs early 80s scene....trying hard but being passed by other teams.

[floskate]

I didn't get a chance to see '83 Worlds pairs. It sounds like the power of the Soviet Fed in the Pairs domain was too much to overcome.

I also have to admit that as much as I like the gutsiness of the Carruthers', I think they would've been at a disadvantage had B/T, U/M and S/M all skated their best and the American pair would've probably finished 5th. Then again, who knows what they would've attempted in the LP had B/T and U/M gone clean in the SP and they had nothing to lose: a throw 4sal may have been attempted which they were landing in practice. I was surprised when I rewatched their LP that C/C didn't do SBS 2x's [unless I missed something] to try and gain some ground on the top teams.

C/C were 5th in 1980 Olympics, BTW which is where they would've ended up again. C/C may have ended up the B/A of the Pairs early 80s scene....trying hard but being passed by other teams.

Of all the footage I've seen, I never saw Kitty & Peter compete sbs 2x's. They may have done it elsewhere in another competition but if they did have them they must have been pretty inconsistent as they were never attempted at the major championships where they needed them most. They did have a throw triple loop which they were landing as early as 1978 and completed at the 1978 US Sports festival in Colorado Springs but that disappeared from the repertoire aswell by 1980 it seems.

All that considered, C&C skated their best program, at the best time when others didn't. It is still my fave pairs LP to watch from that event :)

[skatesindreams]

Here is the Carruthers' 1983 LP:

US commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIzUwj9qs6M

Canadian commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO_Cgny5Sa8

I like the performance very much.

[CaptCrunch]

Completely agree that V/V should have been 3rd at 83 worlds behind both the Canadians and East Germans. I love V/V but they were very sloppy in the LP at 83 worlds.

The Carruthers came home from Helsinki and were very upset about the judging. They didn't agree with the final results at all. Peter gave a brief interview with CBS at worlds where it clearly showed he was pissed off about the judging.

[Fallcolor]

Yes, 1983 worlds was most definitely weird in terms of placements. U/M program and choreography was my favourite of the pairs, and they deserved to win, but so too did B/T. I have no clue what the politics were like at the time but it did seem that Moskvina's strategy of including a risky element like the 3t's would always allow an almost clean V/V to place ahead of clean pairs such as both U/M and esp. the Carruthers.

The Carruthers came home from Helsinki and were very upset about the judging. They didn't agree with the final results at all. Peter gave a brief interview with CBS at worlds where it clearly showed he was pissed off about the judging.
Did they think they should have medalled? or just upset about the placements of the top 3?

[essence_of_soy]

Yes, 1983 worlds was most definitely weird in terms of placements. U/M program and choreography was my favourite of the pairs, and they deserved to win, but so too did B/T. I have no clue what the politics were like at the time but it did seem that Moskvina's strategy of including a risky element like the 3t's would always allow an almost clean V/V to place ahead of clean pairs such as both U/M and esp. the Carruthers.
Did they think they should have medalled? or just upset about the placements of the top 3?

Whether they were upset or not about getting a medal, I know that I would be upset about the actual standings.

When you think about it, a pair making their debut in World competition and winning is great and should be applauded for having that kind of impact. However, that they won with a flawed performance over other teams that skated better, specifically Baess / Thierbach, and Underhill / Martini, that's not so good. Valova and Vassiliev became a better team after 1984. I love their free skate from 1985.

6.0 logic should be applied to my concern. IJS would produce a different outcome again, no doubt. (And no, I'm not suggesting this become a thread about what the final result would be under the current judging system with a breakdown of individual components.)