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smarts1
07-19-2010, 05:19 PM
Kim 2010
Kwan 1998
(Nagasu 2010)
Chen 1998
Lipinski 1998
Ito 1992
(Harding 1992)
Arakawa 2006
Rochette 2010
Asada 2010
(Suguri 2006)
Yamaguchi 1992
Cohen 2006
Hughes 2002
Kwan 2002
(Cohen 2002)
(Sato 1994)
Chen 1994
Slutskaya 2002
Kerrigan 1994
(Butyrskaya 1998)
Baiul 1994
Slutskaya 2006
Kerrigan 1992

Sato was 5th in Lillehammer... Bonaly was 4th...

Marco
07-19-2010, 05:39 PM
Sato was 5th in Lillehammer... Bonaly was 4th...

Who's Bonaly? :summer:

Marco
07-19-2010, 06:05 PM
LOL, did you get the non so-called artistry of Harding ? :P

Absolutely. Her power was exciting to watch. She had hang time on the jumps. She had a lot of abandon on the steps and spins. And for those who always thought Joubert SOLD his programs: at least Harding actually listened to nuances and beats and changed pace with the tempo change.


The thing that surprises me is that Harding didn't have a better technical content than Arakawa or Yamaguchi (spins, jumps and footwork). IMO, her spins were really slow in Albertville, and her landings were tight.

Yamaguchi's jumps were small and didn't cover as much ice, almost Kirk-like. 3/3 and all, Arakawa's 5 clean normal triples meant about the same as Harding's 5 big but some flawed triples and they both meant more than Yamaguchi's 5 tiny but clean triples.

I would definitely give Harding the nod on spin execution. The height and extenson on the flying spins, the speed, and not losing speed through the spins. Her spins were slower than usual but still faster than Yamaguchi's or Arakawa's. Yamaguchi's spins were neat but she almost always lost speed before the spin ended (but then again her spins were harder). Arakawa's spins were just steady and as I already mentioned, overly relying on the same tricks to deserve more credit for difficulty.

All 3 had wonderful steps and field moves but Harding had steps that fle acros the ice but not Yamaguchi and I always hate COP steps.


And obviously, her skating is not as fluid and light as Yamaguchi or Arakawa, and is less esthetic.

Harding was fast and had great ice coverage and edging. Arakawa was fine but Yamaguchi was slower and more deliberate in comparison.

IMO of course.

Marco
07-19-2010, 06:24 PM
The real best LP of 92 was by Lu Chen anyway though.

Only if you are basing this on the number of clean triples (beautiful as they were). The spins with no finesse and on unintentional wrong edges, and with no passable sit positions should clearly have dragged her way down.

If you are talking about just choreography, Yamaguchi and Ito still had better programs. Even Sato did. (IMO)

judgejudy27
07-19-2010, 06:41 PM
Yamaguchi's jumps were small and didn't cover as much ice, almost Kirk-like. 3/3 and all, Arakawa's 5 clean normal triples meant about the same as Harding's 5 big but some flawed triples and they both meant more than Yamaguchi's 5 tiny but clean triples.


You are ignoring that Kristi had 2 triple lutzes, the 2nd being about 30 seconds from the end, a triple lutz-triple toe (one of the hardest triple-triples), a triple flip out of difficult footwork steps. Arakawa had 2 triple lutzes, 3 triple-double combinations including a triple-double-double (as per demanded by the rules but still), and of course all the jumps beautifully with good height, flow, and on one foot. There is simply no way a program with 5 triples but no impressive combinations which included 2 triple toes, but half of those jumps two footed, is of more value no matter how "big" the jumps were.

smarts1
07-20-2010, 01:26 AM
Who's Bonaly? :summer:

You are kidding right?

smarts1
07-20-2010, 01:33 AM
Only if you are basing this on the number of clean triples (beautiful as they were). The spins with no finesse and on unintentional wrong edges, and with no passable sit positions should clearly have dragged her way down.

If you are talking about just choreography, Yamaguchi and Ito still had better programs. Even Sato did. (IMO)

I would have to disagree strongly with the second part. Chen definitely had much stronger choreography than both Ito (her program was flat no offense) and Sato (generic choreography) and perhaps even Yamaguchi (boring, very controlled) with that beautiful program in Albertville. She had a program chock full of transitions and graceful arm movements. As for the spins, well... :rolleyes:... But either way, that LP was a program for the ages.

Marco
07-20-2010, 03:18 AM
I would have to disagree strongly with the second part. Chen definitely had much stronger choreography than both Ito (her program was flat no offense) and Sato (generic choreography) and perhaps even Yamaguchi (boring, very controlled) with that beautiful program in Albertville. She had a program chock full of transitions and graceful arm movements. As for the spins, well... :rolleyes:... But either way, that LP was a program for the ages.

The choreographies I mentioned were much harder on their own, just that Yamaguchi, Ito and Sato didn't perform them as well.

Chen's program was very nice too but her performance of it was much greener and less polished. It would have been great to see her skate to it around 95 - 98.


You are kidding right?

What do you think? :smokin:

briancoogaert
07-20-2010, 10:45 AM
What do you think? :smokin:
I think that a Harding lover like you can do (or think) the best and the worst. :P

Coco
07-21-2010, 03:39 PM
I think it was Michelle who later said that her program had been tentative.

The rink in Nagano was larger than the rink in Philadelphia, and this played to Tara's superior speed. It also exacerbated Michelle's lack of "seasoning" due to the injury in the fall.

I'm not so sure Kwan would have won if she skated after Tara. 8 jumping passes never compares well to 6 jumping passes.

1 - Tara '98
2 - Kim '10
3 - Kwan '98

museksk8r
07-21-2010, 03:42 PM
I had to watch Baiul again because of this thread! It was almost like she began to sing the songs she was skating to the music from! LOL. She seemed totally totally into it! 10000000%.

Yes, Baiul's biggest selling point was her expression and charisma. She wore her heart on her sleeve with her personality. She had it in spades whereas Nancy lacked that quality big time, giving an appearance of being stiff and robotic in her movements. Oksana was having fun and playing to the audience while Kerrigan always showed she was working and had a job to do.

iarispiralllyof
07-21-2010, 07:47 PM
I think it was Michelle who later said that her program had been tentative.

The rink in Nagano was larger than the rink in Philadelphia, and this played to Tara's superior speed. It also exacerbated Michelle's lack of "seasoning" due to the injury in the fall.

I'm not so sure Kwan would have won if she skated after Tara. 8 jumping passes never compares well to 6 jumping passes.

1 - Tara '98
2 - Kim '10
3 - Kwan '98

michelle had 8 jumping passes.

3 lutz - 2 toe
3 loop - half loop - 2 toe
3 flip
2 axel
3 loop
3 salchow
3 lutz
3 toe

both had 7 triple programs. technically tara's was harder due to a 3-3 combination and a 3 half loop 3 combination, but it is hard to call. michelle's jumps were fully rotated unlike some of tara's, michelle's spins were more complex, her spirals were of course better. and the choreography/artistry was lightyears ahead of tara. I seriously think it was an extremely close race.

Coco
07-21-2010, 08:38 PM
When I said 8 jumping passes never compares well to 6 jumping passes, I meant that the crossovers necessary for those additional 2 passes create something of a hole in the program.

Both ladies had some issues where their loop jumps, but Tara's jumps were fully rotated.

iarispiralllyof
07-21-2010, 08:46 PM
Oh, I see what you mean. Actually imo Michelle's program was complete and pretty seamless all the way through, even the crossovers seemed to blend in to the music and everything was so nuanced. Unlike in later years where she seemed to take forever just doing crossovers building up for jumps with nothing in between.

I remember Tara's 3-3 being under-rotated, but it was so long ago that I watched that performance

mattie
07-21-2010, 08:55 PM
Lipinski (1998) Improved year on year. This is such a tough routine but still retains such a veneer of innocent joy that makes me smile. She musta trained like a ballbuster though.

Baiul (1994) - she expressed the routine to the nth degree (although the short was even more glorious). Both were very much theatrical performances of the Witt ilk - On the other hand, my personal Hell would be having to watch one of those endless Kerrigan routines - they were like black holes of aggressively banal doom!

Kim (2010) I wasn't hoping for her to win, I find her posture aesthetically offensive in a way which eludes me, but this was such a dominant performance and technically what she does is sublime.

Arakawa (2006) - Totally blah and derivative of what Tarasova had her doing earlier in the season choreographically - though admittedly it's high quality blah. Clean and unfussy.

Kwan (1998) - What was gorgeous at US Nats was skating by numbers at Nagano. Hollow loveliness. A judge once told me that they would’ve marked her second for the dress alone. :lol: Even I'm not that harsh.

Sarah Hughes (2002) - Girl could cheat a jump like a pro! Horrendous posture, monstrous stroking (the backward cross cuts are bizarre), jumping technique that made Bobek look positively restrained... and yet all in all she was utterly compelling.

Slutskaya (1998/2002/2006) - They all kinda blend into one really. Interesting to see how she learnt to package her strengths - but very much a SP skater. (Am I the only one who liked her best in 1997?)

Chen (1994) - kinda came out of nowhere after a yawn-tastic short. Ruthless efficiency on display here.

Asada (2010) - 3As were incredible, but this just wasn't an olympic winning routine. Where the near death melo-drama routines work in ice dance, they don't translate so well into the women's event, especially when you look like a deer in the headlights every now and then.

Cohen (2006) - yeah she missed some jumps, but the little princess packaging was a diabolical misstep. Is a step backwards from her 2002 performance in every way apart from the spins. Truly believe she could've been great. She wasn't.

Chen (1998) - I love the way everyone's like Sarah Hughes bash cheat bash - but this was the archetypal cheat central programme. Gorgeous routine though, very emotionally charged. I wonder how the Chen of 1996 would've fared.

Kwan (2002) Terrible routine; poorly executed by her considerable standards and Frank Carrol should use this as a warning as to what happens when you leave him.

Kerrigan (1994) - see above. Her SP for 92/93 worked for her in a way nothing else ever did. But you have to give her props for holding up under the pressure for her own personal standards.

Rochette (2010) - I'd love to love this. Alas, I don't. Great triumph against adversity etc etc and she deserves an Olympic medal for her whole career imo. Just don't love the performance