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Lanna
06-21-2010, 05:03 PM
Based on HisWeirness' list it would be:


That's a list of skaters who are eligible for a GP invite to an event that isn't in the country they represent. They're potential alternates. This is not a strict alternates list, where the host must go in order down the list. The host can invite any skater/team from that list in any order, just so long as they do not go outside that list (with the exception of the three host picks from the host country, who can be anyone)

Ziggy
06-21-2010, 05:37 PM
That's a list of skaters who are eligible for a GP invite to an event that isn't in the country they represent. They're potential alternates. This is not a strict alternates list, where the host must go in order down the list. The host can invite any skater/team from that list in any order, just so long as they do not go outside that list (with the exception of the three host picks from the host country, who can be anyone)

Thank you for the explanation Lanna.

In that case, it's very "politik" based. :(

Lanna
06-21-2010, 06:17 PM
IMHO, it's fairer this way. There is a very finite number of GP spots and if you just took the top of the potentials list, it would get caught into a vicious cycle: the same skaters get the GP events, which gives them the rankings/ability-to-have-a-season's-best to get a GP spot next year, which gives them GP spots, etc, making it even harder for others to break through. A skater who placed out of the top-whatever might technically qualify for the alternates list, but would be too low ranked to actually get a GP event and their ranking would drop, and they may not have the opportunity to get a season's best for that season, possibly making them ineligible for the GP the following season. If you open it up to not following the qualified-order, you can give a 50th-ranked skater an opportuntity to improve the ranking, score a high season's best, or get more international experience. GP counts for a lot in the rankings, and, unless you are guaranteed a GP event through Worlds-top12/Junior Worlds-top3/JGPF-top3/top-24, the best way to get a GP event in the future is to be on the GP and maintain a ranking.

It's not a perfect system by any means; I would love it if there were more ways to break onto the GP. But as it is, if you just went down the alternates list in order...well, there are 12*6 total GP spots in singles, 10*6 total spots in dance, and 8*6 in pairs. Of those, per discipline: 3*6 are host picks, skaters can get two events and you need two events to qualify for the GPF, and some skaters are guaranteed one or two events. If you just went down the alternates list, they may as well cap the alternates list 40 places higher than they do, because no one below a certain number would have a chance of getting a spot unless there are a lot of injuries and retirements.

Frau Muller
06-21-2010, 06:23 PM
Skate Canada sounds like THE event to attend, IMO. JOHNNY WEIR, for starters, plus Virtue/Moir, Ksenia Makarova, Sarah Hecken, Agnes Zawadski, Nobu Oda, etc. Not to forget JAVIER THE MAGNIFICENT - Ole!!! Beside it's the one closest to me. (ha-ha)

TEB-Paris is the other one that beckons.

So is Plushy still in it? I was surprised to see his name, although he mentioned during Olympics that he wanted to keep himself in shape every year en route to the next Olympics -- unlike last time, when he ate pasta and drank good wine for three years.

And is Alissa Czissny still really in it???

HisWeirness
06-21-2010, 06:26 PM
From what I've heard Plushenko is recovering from a procedure on his knee and in all likelihood will not be on the GP this season.

And I think at this point that Johnny's presence on the GP is up in the air because there have been no reports of new choreo/programs, etc. I know there is supposed to be some kind of announcement about his future plans to coincide with the BGJW finale this Sunday.

Frau Muller
06-21-2010, 06:33 PM
.....there is supposed to be some kind of announcement about his future plans to coincide with the BGJW finale this Sunday.

How did I miss this...a BGJW finale this coming Sunday? I thought that all episodes were aired this past winter, with Johnny making the Oly team being the "finale." So is there to be more? Johnny in Vancouver and beyond??? If so, this needs to go on the TV Alerts forum. I am SO GRATEFUL that you made this posting, HisWeirness!

p.s. Of course, even if he retires from competition, we may well see Johnny in Skate Canada as part of Ksenia Makarova's coaching crew.

kirkbiggestfan
06-21-2010, 06:41 PM
Maybe Blanc/Bouquet will get their second Skate America assignment. If you have to invite alternates, you may as well pick entertainers.

SamuraiK
06-21-2010, 06:55 PM
Based on HisWeirness' list it would be:

second spot for Alessandrini/Vaturi
spot for Mallory/Rand
spot for Mysliveckova/Novak

Now I wonder what would be the order in which the spots are handed out.

Would the second spot for A/V came first or would it first go to the teams with no assigments yet?

It's more about who on the alternate lists is the easiest for the host country to get (specially when the witdrawals happen a a few days before the event starts). They need to think about costs and visas when it comes to their invitations. That's why Skate America always invites skaters that train in the US (like Tugba) and we see lots of oscure euro skaters at TEB who have no chance of being invited to another event.

The zars leave two spots open for NHK and SA. Mysliveckova/Novak were already invited to NHK last year and A&V were in Tokyo for the JGP Final, so they've already received the needed visas and are likely to be invited again. As for Skate America, Mallory&Rand are a shpillband team, plus she's american and they were there last year too so they should be the obvious replacement.

Sylvia
06-21-2010, 07:15 PM
It's more about who on the alternate lists is the easiest for the host country to get (specially when the witdrawals happen a a few days before the event starts). They need to think about costs and visas when it comes to their invitations. That's why Skate America always invites skaters that train in the US (like Tugba) and we see lots of oscure euro skaters at TEB who have no chance of being invited to another event.

Turkey's Tugba Karademir trains in Canada (Barrie). USFS and Skate Canada do tend to invite each other's skaters to fill out their respective rosters, especially when it comes to alternates and the maximum of 3 slots per country per discipline has not yet been filled.

The 6 host federations are supposed to invite alternates up to 14 days before the their GP draw; after that time, they are not obligated to fill any empty slots due to the high costs of travel/visas/etc.


p.s. Of course, even if he retires from competition, we may well see Johnny in Skate Canada as part of Ksenia Makarova's coaching crew.
Probably not unless Weir pays his own way or finds another way to be invited there. USFS pays for one coach per skater/team to each GP. (ETA: So I assume this would be the case for Makarova and Russia, too.)

REO
06-21-2010, 07:30 PM
Makarova skates for Russia doesn't she? Not US. I still think you're right though about her Federation paying his way.

Ziggy
06-21-2010, 07:33 PM
IMHO, it's fairer this way. There is a very finite number of GP spots and if you just took the top of the potentials list, it would get caught into a vicious cycle: the same skaters get the GP events, which gives them the rankings/ability-to-have-a-season's-best to get a GP spot next year, which gives them GP spots, etc, making it even harder for others to break through.

Well I think that it would work well if a limited number of skaters at the top would get two events but then there would be a priority of giving events to skaters further down the ranking over giving second spots to skaters not at the top.

If that makes sense.

I guess the crux of the problem lies in how limited GP spots are in the first place.

Lanna
06-21-2010, 07:47 PM
Well I think that it would work well if a limited number of skaters at the top would get two events but then there would be a priority of giving events to skaters further down the ranking over giving second spots to skaters not at the top.

If that makes sense.



It does...but then the only skaters who can qualify for the GPF would be the skaters at the top already, because you're prioritizing giving one spot to as many skaters as possible instead of giving two spots to as many as possible.



I guess the crux of the problem lies in how limited GP spots are in the first place.

Yep. And how you qualify for them. I like the post-Olympic year; due to retirements/splits, there is going to be more room for new skaters to debut.

And it seems every year, I make the same "the GP needs to expand and change the way you qualify for it! :mitchell:" post. :lol:

Ziggy
06-21-2010, 08:19 PM
And it seems every year, I make the same "the GP needs to expand and change the way you qualify for it! :mitchell:" post. :lol:

Yes, it's extremely annoying how elitist the system is and how it privileges the skaters coming from the host countries and those that are already at the top.

I think that the Season's Best scores would be a fair way qualifying skaters maybe, but only if B-Internationals were counted as well.

So that if some "random unknown skater" performs well at an event, it's actually registered and opens the doors for something better.

Jayar
06-22-2010, 12:34 AM
Yes, it's extremely annoying how elitist the system is and how it privileges the skaters coming from the host countries and those that are already at the top.

I think that the Season's Best scores would be a fair way qualifying skaters maybe, but only if B-Internationals were counted as well.

So that if some "random unknown skater" performs well at an event, it's actually registered and opens the doors for something better.

What's worse is that now with the number of skaters qualifying for the FS at ISU Championships (where scores are generally higher than the rest of the season), skaters from developing skating nations might not have the opportunity to skate in the free and take advantage of a season's best score... they would only have a SP score. So essentially, the host countries and those who make the final at Worlds (and Jr. Worlds), 4CCs, and Euros will get Grand Prixs. *AND* Skaters at 4CCs will have an easier time of that because there are less countries and skaters to be placed behind.

Ziggy
06-22-2010, 10:36 AM
What's worse is that now with the number of skaters qualifying for the FS at ISU Championships (where scores are generally higher than the rest of the season), skaters from developing skating nations might not have the opportunity to skate in the free and take advantage of a season's best score... they would only have a SP score. So essentially, the host countries and those who make the final at Worlds (and Jr. Worlds), 4CCs, and Euros will get Grand Prixs. *AND* Skaters at 4CCs will have an easier time of that because there are less countries and skaters to be placed behind.

Thanks for raising this point, I didn't think of that.

God those rule changes are so depressing. :(

Really - season's best scores should count for all ISU sanctioned competitions. There just should be care taken to prevent PCS inflation at smaller events.