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View Full Version : American Idol Finals - May 25 and 26 (All Mediocre Things Must Come To An End)



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Allskate
09-09-2010, 07:32 PM
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Something needs to be fixed at Jive. No one is doing well over there. Idol did the right thing by getting the hell out of there. Who would want to sign with them now?

Pink and Usher are doing fine. You can look at virtually every pop label and see that there are plenty of artists not going gold or platinum.
So, I don't think it's necessarily a Jive issue that explains some of their artists not doing well. Some of it is just that people aren't buying music. (It's not just a replacement with singles; singles have been around since my grandmother's time and people bought them, but they weren't illegally downloading or able to listen to everything online.) But, I don't think that Allison was necessarily the right fit for Jive. I'm also not at all confident that Crystal is the right fit for them, either.

cailuj365
09-09-2010, 10:13 PM
Pink and Usher are doing fine. You can look at virtually every pop label and see that there are plenty of artists not going gold or platinum.
So, I don't think it's necessarily a Jive issue that explains some of their artists not doing well. Some of it is just that people aren't buying music. (It's not just a replacement with singles; singles have been around since my grandmother's time and people bought them, but they weren't illegally downloading or able to listen to everything online.) But, I don't think that Allison was necessarily the right fit for Jive. I'm also not at all confident that Crystal is the right fit for them, either.

Well, it's not like people stopped buying music from only Jive Records artists. Illegal downloading affects all record labels, but they do still have other artists that are getting gold and platinum sales. Usher may be the only one right now getting massive sales, but both he and Pink are actually on LaFace Records, which is part of Jive Label Group, but it's not Jive Records, which is where the Idols are getting signed. I mentioned Jive earlier, because Jive's track record with Idol is dismal right now. I think whoever is picking the singles at Jive Records should be fired. Kris' second single flopped, Archie's lead single for his new album is currently flopping, Jordin had no successful follow-up singles after Battlefield, Allison's first few single choices have been pretty bad. These kids just aren't making money from these songs, and it's not like they have big album sales to help them either. If I won the show next season and was going to sign a record deal to make pop music, I'd be really happy that Jive wasn't an option and go running toward Interscope or something.

Oh yeah, and I do have a lot of friends who don't bother buying or even illegally downloading music, because they just listen through YouTube. If they listen to the official versions, I think the record label does get revenue from the streaming. Record labels have to come up with new ways to earn money that they're losing from album sales if they're going to survive. I read some article (maybe it was posted here?) about how a woman's job was to go to all of these restaurants that played music and ask the owners to pay for licensing fees.

Allskate
09-09-2010, 10:50 PM
Well, it's not like people stopped buying music from only Jive Records artists. Illegal downloading affects all record labels, but they do still have other artists that are getting gold and platinum sales.

Again, if you look at other pop labels, you will see that the majority of the artists are not going platinum. It's not just Jive. And, although I think that Jive did a crap job choosing Kris Allen's singles, I do not hold them responsible for Jordin and Archie not having bigger sales. In fact, I'm pretty sure those two would have worse sales if not for Jive. Jordin got lucky winning her season and none of her performances would have led people to think of her as a pop singer. But, Jive got material and people to work with her so that she got a lot of radio play and singles sales. Similarly, Archie's performances on Idol were not the type of thing you would hear on the radio and it's not what he's naturally good at. He also comes across as young even though his singing style has not been, which makes him difficult to market. Again, not Jive's fault.

I also don't think that Jive is really the one primarily at fault for Allison's poor sales. Considering she finished fourth, they got her some pretty good exposure on tv. They tried hard to get her radio play. Scars was not a good choice as a single, but FIBOU is the kind of music that gets played on radio and they did pay for a musician to do an extensive radio tour with her. I would have preferred a more rock-oriented album, but the truth is that a rock album would not have gotten her more radio play and more sales. There just isn't a lot of rock selling these days.

And look at Interscope's artist roster:

http://www.interscope.com/artists/default.aspx

The majority of those artists are not getting tons of radio play and selling gold and platinum records. Of those that are doing really well, most of them write (and even produce) their own material and many are not new artists. I don't think they're doing better because of the label.

Having said all that, I don't think Jive is the right fit for Crystal. She's not really a pop artist and most of Jive is pop.

cailuj365
09-10-2010, 03:44 AM
I never said that the majority of artists on a pop record label are going platinum or gold, but at least SOME of them are. With Jive Records, I don't even know who to name that's been successful for them beyond one song this year. If not for Usher, it would have been a bad year for Jive Label Group. Jive Records better hope that Britney and JT come back with a bang soon. At least with Interscope, they do have several platinum-selling artists and they can use whatever profit to invest in their new talent. Usher's profits are probably going back to LaFace Records, not Jive Records. Having big-selling artists who are hot on the radio also gives a label better pull with the radio companies to spin songs by their new artists, even if they suck. If Geffen/Interscope can get a crap, generic song like "According To You" all the way to #3 on the pop radio charts, even though its sales had lagged far behind, that says something about their power.

To me, it just looks like that Jive isn't doing their job getting radio to play their artists' songs, even when they're not new and have had success in the format in the past. Jordin had a good debut album era with several platinum singles. They followed up with Battlefield, which went Billboard Top 10, and then....what happened after that? Her next single was a flop, but they didn't even give her another one after that to make up for it. Was there no other song they could have released afterward? I've never seen her Idol performances, but pop/R&B seems like a very natural genre for her, and people were buying her stuff before. I don't think genre is the issue here.

Again, I've never watched David on Idol either, but I thought "Crush" was a good song, and it fits his voice very well. It sold tons too, so it's not like the general public had problems with him as a pop singer. So why no hit since? Isn't Archie's fanbase mostly teen girls as well? That's a big part of Top 40 audience. His new single is pretty good actually, but it's not going anywhere. He's releasing a new album soon. It's Jive's responsibility that people know about it with this new lead single, but they're not doing a very good job right now.

I agree that there may not have been any more they could do with Allison. They did release a third single, even though the first two didn't do well. Her songs were decent, but unfortunately, she just had no support. I think that's what happens when you have two Idol alums from the same season being signed to the same record label. Jive was trying to promote music from two Idols at the same time, and Kris was obviously going to get priority. Actually, the Z100 program director singled out "Scars" as a song to watch, but the station never spun or added it. ...They probably didn't get paid enough money...which Jive probably didn't have anyway. :shuffle:

And I just don't understand why Jive didn't send Kris' second single for pop radio adds when LLWD was Top 10 on the format. :huh:

I know that a lot of big artists write their own music, but Dr. Luke and Claude Kelly and Max Martin still work and write with a lot of these top artists and churn out the hits for them, often on several more tracks per album.

So, yeah, I just wouldn't want to go to Jive. Regardless of a lot of factors or not being a "good match," they just don't seem to maintain good results for their Idols there. RCA has been doing a better job on radio lately, but given all that I just said about Jive, that's not saying that much. Who knows if Universal will actually do any better, but they are bigger and they do have more money.

cailuj365
09-10-2010, 04:06 AM
Wow, that was a long post. You always bring out my chatty side, Allskate. ;)

Anyway, I just read this article that I thought was really interesting. Yahoo! article on singles artists with bad album sales (http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/chart_watch/65521/chart-watch-extra-is-it-a-hit-or-a-let-down/). They discuss Katy a lot as well as other artists. I do think Katy will eventually go platinum though, although not multi-platinum. I think guys like Eminem and Usher, who have big opening week numbers, still have a lot of older fans from the 90s that are used to buying CDs, but they're quickly becoming the exception. Katy was discovered post-iTunes.

...and I just read that Usher's album in 2004 sold 1.1 million copies the first week. :eek: He has about 1.1 million copies now of his last album TOTAL.

Allskate
09-10-2010, 04:51 AM
Jordin had a good debut album era with several platinum singles. They followed up with Battlefield, which went Billboard Top 10, and then....what happened after that? Her next single was a flop, but they didn't even give her another one after that to make up for it. Was there no other song they could have released afterward? I've never seen her Idol performances, but pop/R&B seems like a very natural genre for her, and people were buying her stuff before. I don't think genre is the issue here.

Jordin's success on her first album was driven by the first single, which was a duet with Chris Brown. (This was before Brown committed career suicide and there is no doubt that heand Jive were what drove that song's success, not Jordin). Jordin does not have a rabid fan base. She won in a weak season out of default. And, no, she did not sing contemporary pop and did not sing particularly well and did not have the support of the judges to win until the end when there was no one else left. Prior to Idol, she was a pageant princess who sang contemporary Christian music and country. Her most successful song on Idol was a country song she had been singing for years. She mostly chose ballads and generally struggled when she sang anything uptempo. Nobody would have predicted a pop career for her with songs like "No Air" and I totally give credit to Jive for the success she has. I did not think she would do this well.


Again, I've never watched David on Idol either, but I thought "Crush" was a good song, and it fits his voice very well..

Again, if you had watched him on Idol, you never would have predicted this song from him. (People compared him to Josh Groban.) His successful songs were ballads on the show and he looked so uncomfortable on anything else. Let's just say that stage presence and charisma were not his strengths; I think a lot of his fans actually liked him because they felt sympathy for him or found his sweet shyness appealing, not traits you usually associate with successful pop stars. Pop songs are nothing like what got him his popularity on the show, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of his music-based fans are disappointed in the direction his career took. A friend of mine was a huge Archie fan and was bummed when Crush came out. His fans are not all teens and tweens, but many of them are and they tend to move on, which is a problem when you choose a teen-oriented song like Crush to lead off his career. A lot of Idol debut album sales are driven byfandom from the show, not the album itself, and I'm sure radio knows that. It's much harder to get attention from radio, the media, and fans a few years later.

Basically, if you gave either Jordin or Archie to another label, I don't think they would have done better. But, ITA that the treatment of Kris and singles have been a big WTF.

As for Interscope and Orianthi, they apparently haven't been able to get her more than one single, and I think many of those early appearances were due to interest in Michael Jackson's guitarist and having 19M as management who could get her on certain shows.

Yes, Universal has more money, and that may help, but take a look at the people on Interscope who have been selling a lot -- Gaga and Eminem. Hip hop just sells better. Plus, Eminem comes up with his own material. Gaga does most of her stuff herself, too. She couldn't get any radio play here in the U.S. until she was huge in the rest of the world. They've gotten radio play for One Republic (who provide their own material), but it hasn't translated into sales. Their album isn't even close to going gold and I don't think their singles sales have been that huge.

And all the money that they're getting from the likes of Gaga and Eminem doesn't seem to be helping the likes of Sheryl Crow, who most people probably don't even realize released an album this year. (Her single is weak and does not get much play.)


I know that a lot of big artists write their own music, but Dr. Luke and Claude Kelly and Max Martin still work and write with a lot of these top artists and churn out the hits for them, often on several more tracks per album.

Which artists on other labels have turned out multiple hits this year from Max Martin, Claude Kelly, and Dr. Luke?

Honestly, I think pop music is a tough market right now. And given what they had to work with in Jordin, Archie, and Allison, I really can't blame Jive for the fact that they weren't more successful.

ETA:
Wow, that was a long post. You always bring out my chatty side, Allskate. ;)

Right back at you. :lol: But it's fun.


Anyway, I just read this article that I thought was really interesting. Yahoo! article on singles artists with bad album sales (http://new.music.yahoo.com/blogs/chart_watch/65521/chart-watch-extra-is-it-a-hit-or-a-let-down/). They discuss Katy a lot as well as other artists.

They made the same point we were discussing this week about Katy waiting too long to release her album after the release of her California Gurls single.

But, to me, this pretty much sums things up:

"Of course, the biggest single factor inhibiting the sales of Perry's album is that album sales are down across the board. Only two albums have topped the 2 million mark so far this year: Lady Antebellum's Need You Now, which has sold 2,593,000 copies since its release in January, and [Eminem's] Recovery. Just seven albums have sold 1 million or more copies so far this year. Just 21 albums have sold 500,000 or more copies so far this year."

Basically, albums sales are way down, with hip-hop and country doing better than other genres. Only seven platinum albums this year. Wow.

Allskate
09-12-2010, 05:54 PM
So, I saw Crystal perform yesterday at the Power to the Peaceful Festival in Golden Gate Park. She didn’t do any of her stuff from Idol and the only cover she did was Gnarls Barkley’s “Crazy.” The rest were her her originals, but I don’t think these are new songs. Some of them I have heard before (like “Farmer’s Daughter” and “On the Run”), but some of them I haven’t heard before. There were a few she didn’t do that I would have liked to have heard (like “Holy Toledo,” “Gray Haired Rockstar,” and “Put Your Guitar Down”). Maybe she did them the night before. I heard Michael Franti on the radio on Friday saying that she was going to perform with him at The Fillmore on Friday night. (Crystal got some nice promotion on both KFOG and Alice radio, probably the two most important SF radio stations for her.)

I love her original songs, and I wish that her previous recordings had been properly recorded and released for us to buy like Lee’s were. As they’re currently arranged, most of these songs could not get play on the radio – most of them have just guitar or guitar and bass. Some of them could work for radio with a change of arrangement. Plus, between working with Franti, Linda Perry, and Melissa Etheridge, she should be able to come up with some songs that will work on radio. There seems to be an increase in the amount of folk/pop making it to radio. I can imagine her songs being played on radio stations that play Sheryl Crowe, Jason Mraz, Michael Franti, Jack Johnson, David Gray, Ray LaMontagne, Mumford & Sons, and the Avett Brothers.

BTW, the woman who introduced Crystal made a point of introducing Crystal and Frankie May, who played bass with her when she did gigs in Ohio. The woman said twice that Crystal and Frankie are currently working together on a new album. I don’t how much of that is just wishful thinking on Crystal’s part. I can’t even imagine how it felt for Frankie to play this festival. He’s used to playing small bars and yesterday there were literally tens of thousands of people there. (Here’s a twipic of Crystal, little Tony, and the crowd: http://twitpic.com/2nkrvi ) Crystal said it was the coolest thing she has ever done and stopped at one point to say that she just wanted to take a minute to take it all in.

BTW, cailuj, there may yet be another Claude Kelly hit this year. He’s writing with Lee. (So is Kara – David Cook will be so sad if Lee gets to record Magic Rainbow part II. :lol: )

ETA: I guess Casey also spent time this weekend with some old bandmates. He dropped in for a couple of songs:

http://www.youtube.com/user/bhyden1#p/a/u/1/hqSsX_m08SM

http://www.youtube.com/user/bhyden1#p/a/u/0/1szROK0KWtQ

The guy doesn’t need to take off his top to be hot. He just needs to play the guitar. :lol: Too bad Kara was too clueless to recognize that.

BigB08822
09-12-2010, 06:13 PM
Adam Lambert concert tonight!

PrincessLeppard
09-12-2010, 07:22 PM
He is AMAZING live. Have a great time! :)

cailuj365
09-13-2010, 12:40 AM
Sorry for the delayed response. This is what happens when school starts back up again. All the time goes right out the window.

Okay, so Jordin is probably too sweet for a Beyonce/Rhianna type video, Archie doesn't have Justin Bieber swag and hip hop connections, and Allison isn't Selena Gomez (though she could be a more authentic version of Demi Lovato). :lol: I do not contest that Jive has done well in the past. They used to be a monster label in the early 2000s after all. However, in the past year, the sheer number of flops for Jive has been pretty bad, and even if the Idols there don't necessarily fit the big pop star mold, it's up to Jive to come up with a career plan that will last and be profitable instead of just having one-hit wonders and losing money in the end. If their radio team is getting Top 10 adds for songs by Matisse and JLS (who???), which ended up flopping anyway and whose artists have no fan base in America, then they should be making sure that the new single from David Archuleta, who had a BB #2 and a devoted fan base, gets some too. They also scheduled the release of the music video for Kris' second single weeks after it has already peaked. Their strategy has been confusing and disappointing.



As for Interscope and Orianthi, they apparently haven't been able to get her more than one single, and I think many of those early appearances were due to interest in Michael Jackson's guitarist and having 19M as management who could get her on certain shows.

She's definitely a one-hit-wonder, and undoubtedly the MJ connection helped her, but to have your one single go all the way to airplay #3???? Not even Lady Gaga's last single managed that. It was still climbing on the radio even though it had dropped in sales too. Just imagine if Allison got some of that payola. Allison didn't even garner a Top 50, let alone Top 5.



Yes, Universal has more money, and that may help, but take a look at the people on Interscope who have been selling a lot -- Gaga and Eminem. Hip hop just sells better. Plus, Eminem comes up with his own material. Gaga does most of her stuff herself, too. She couldn't get any radio play here in the U.S. until she was huge in the rest of the world. They've gotten radio play for One Republic (who provide their own material), but it hasn't translated into sales. Their album isn't even close to going gold and I don't think their singles sales have been that huge.

And all the money that they're getting from the likes of Gaga and Eminem doesn't seem to be helping the likes of Sheryl Crow, who most people probably don't even realize released an album this year. (Her single is weak and does not get much play.)

OneRepublic's "All the Right Moves" sold 1.6 million copies, and I'd be surprised if their second single, "Secrets," doesn't get at least gold. Hip hop is a big seller, but not a big album mover unless you are an established, name-will-go-down-in-history type like Eminem. However, the #1 song on iTunes right now is "Just the Way You Are," a sugary, sweet Jason Mraz type of song. Bruno Mars has done some hip hop collaborations too, but people have to actually like this pop song to buy it at this high of a level. The biggest thing you hear about him is how good his voice is. Besides, I'm not saying that future Idols on Interscope or Universal will turn out to be Gaga or Eminem or need to write their own songs. I'm saying that a record label that is actually making money will probably allow them to take more chances and invest better in upcoming artists.

Also, Sheryl Crow isn't even a Top 40 artist, so why would she chart there? Her single is charting and currently climbing on HAC though and was top 5 on AAA, which are her core formats. I actually did know that she released an album this year, and I saw the music video for it too. She did some promo on TV that I happened to watch.

Actually, I think Hot AC is the format that most Idols find success on, because it's geared for artists who actually can sing without autotune and whose target audience is a bit older. Jive should market Archuleta more heavily over there instead of on POP, since pop has gone away from Archuleta's style.



Which artists on other labels have turned out multiple hits this year from Max Martin, Claude Kelly, and Dr. Luke?

Dr. Luke and Max Martin produced and co-wrote Katy's "California Gurls" and "Teenage Dream." They've also produced/written three other tracks on the album and Greg Wells contributed two more. Dr. Luke and Max Martin either co-wrote or produced 9 tracks off of Ke$ha's album, including "Your Love is My Drug," "Tik Tok," and "Take It Off." Claude Kelly co-wrote "Take It Off." I know that Katy and Ke$ha co-write their material too, but this is heavy dependency on the big hit-makers here, especially with the singles.



But, to me, this pretty much sums things up:

"Of course, the biggest single factor inhibiting the sales of Perry's album is that album sales are down across the board. Only two albums have topped the 2 million mark so far this year: Lady Antebellum's Need You Now, which has sold 2,593,000 copies since its release in January, and [Eminem's] Recovery. Just seven albums have sold 1 million or more copies so far this year. Just 21 albums have sold 500,000 or more copies so far this year."

Basically, albums sales are way down, with hip-hop and country doing better than other genres. Only seven platinum albums this year. Wow.

Yeah, that struck me too. It does suck for the musician and the music industry, but I don't think there's a lot that anyone can do to stop it unless a time machine is involved and someone stops the creation of the Internet. Also, it's not so much the popularity of the genre as it the audience demographic that determines high album sales. Like Taio Cruz for example, huge hip hop singles but really poor album sales. Same with Jason DeRulo. I said this before, but what do Susan Boyle, Eminem, Lady Antebellum, Andrea Bocelli, Sade, Mary J. Blige, Usher, and Alicia Keys all have in common? They all had huge opening numbers, and they are older artists (as in had a career before 2000) or their music is targeted toward audiences that skew older (country; standards and classical music; r&b). Younger generations just buy singles or download illegally.

cailuj365
09-13-2010, 12:46 AM
Wow, Brian, have a good time! I wish I could go to another show. I think it's gotten a lot better since the first half of the tour.

Adam is going to be at the Z100 Jingle Ball and another radio concert for Q102 in Philadelphia in December. I am devastated about Jingle Ball. It would have been the perfect concert for me and my friend to go to (we just want to see the big stars sing their hits), but it's the night before my immunology final at 9 am, which is worth 50% of my grade. Crying into my pillow, brb.

Allskate
09-13-2010, 04:12 AM
However, in the past year, the sheer number of flops for Jive has been pretty bad, and even if the Idols there don't necessarily fit the big pop star mold, it's up to Jive to come up with a career plan that will last and be profitable instead of just having one-hit wonders and losing money in the end. If their radio team is getting Top 10 adds for songs by Matisse and JLS (who???), which ended up flopping anyway and whose artists have no fan base in America, then they should be making sure that the new single from David Archuleta, who had a BB #2 and a devote fan base, gets some too.

Maybe they thought those artists would get fan bases in America? (I have no idea who those people are.) La Roux and Gaga were famous in Europe first. We don't know how much money Jive spent on each of those artists, but I'm not sure it's alwyas a wise approach to spend a ton of money on radio. What Jive wants is the most profits possible, not the most radio play or even the most sales. It costs money to get exposure and radio play. And if David's devoted fan base is going to buy anyway, then why put a lot of money into radio and promotion if they are not going to get a good return on that investment?

Jive's approach might actually be more successful than some others' approaches in this business climate. Aside from the obvious and few success stories, you probably would consider most of the labels to have had mostly flops this year. But who has lost more money? The labels that overinvested in flops or those that didn't. Archie's music isn't my cup of tea, so maybe I'm not a good judge, but his new music doesn't sound all that great and worth investing in to me. But, I obviously know squat about pop because, for the life of me, I do not get Ke$ha's appeal. :lol:

I seem to recall that some of Archie's fans were happy that he was signed with Jive because Jive was the type of label that wouldn't drop him immediately if he didn't have huge sales and would be more willing to let him have a second album. The reason they can do that is because they are not sinking as much money into him. From an Idol's perspective, what is better? Having a ton of money put into them, with the expectation that they will produce huge sales beyond their Idol base or having a more modest investment with lower expectations and demands?

To some extent, I think Crystal's desired approach makes sense. Don't spend the money on an A&R person and let Crystal write her own material (including with her desired writing partners). Don't spend a ton of money on radio, focusing instead on a more targeted radui market that actually would find her style appealing. Don't spend big money on videos like they have with Adam. And use their usual tv connections to get her exposure on talk shows and Idol.


Just imagine if Allison got some of that payola. Allison didn't even garner a Top 50, let alone Top 5.

We don't know how much payola Allison got, but we do know that Jive spent money hiring a guitarist to travel with her a lot. And it got her nowhere. If Jive had invested a lot of money in Allison, I'm not sure they would have received a good return on that investment. Even if a label is making money, they're not going to put a lot of money where they don't see it's warranted. Yes, Orianthi got money put into her single. Do you think that was a wise investment? How much has she sold? I guess that, without knowing how much they spend on payola, video, tv, and other promotion, we can't know if they have recouped their investment. But, I'm just not convinced that Allison would have sold a lot even with big payola behind her. She got big exposure on some tv shows with huge audiences and got nearly no sales bump.

And throwing a big name writer or producer in to help isn't necessarily going to result in financial success, especially since those people cost more. Also, I would guess that they save their best stuff for the biggest stars because they think they'll have more sales that way. These big names definitely produce plenty of stuff that doesn't work, too. Claude Kelly worked with Kris Allen and that stuff didn't even make the album.




OneRepublic's "All the Right Moves" sold 1.6 million copies, and I'd be surprised if their second single, "Secrets," doesn't get at least gold.

That's fairly big, but not huge. Katy Perry's singles sales for California Gurls probably will be triple what OneRepublic makes on all their singles. And it just doesn't make up for album sales. It probably takes a million singles sales to make the same profit as 100,000 album sales. So, yes, One Republic is doing better than the vast majority of Interscope's artists, but it's not huge, especially given how much they've probably invested in radio play and videos. I wouldn't be surprised if there are artists with much lower public profiles that will be nearly as profitable without the financial risk.



Also, Sheryl Crow isn't even a Top 40 artist, so why would she chart there?

Chart where? I didn't say anything about her charting on POP radio. I listen to HAC and hardly hear her on a radio station that usually likes her. I have the impression that she's not getting a ton of radio play on stations that have played her a lot in the past. And, IMO, it's because the song isn't very good. How many singles and albums has she sold even with Interscope's money theoretically at her disposal? And how much of that is just out of longtime fan loyalty. In the end, it's not simply about a label having money. You need good product and you need to be worth the investment.


Jive should market Archuleta more heavily over there instead of on POP, since pop has gone away from Archuleta's style.

Archuletta became famous with a Grobanesque/Dionesque style. That doesn't get much radio play on HAC either these days.



Yeah, that struck me too. It does suck for the musician and the music industry, but I don't think there's a lot that anyone can do to stop it unless a time machine is involved and someone stops the creation of the Internet. Also, it's not so much the popularity of the genre as it the audience demographic that determines high album sales. Like Taio Cruz for example, huge hip hop singles but really poor album sales. Same with Jason DeRulo. I said this before, but what do Susan Boyle, Eminem, Lady Antebellum, Andrea Bocelli, Sade, Mary J. Blige, Usher, and Alicia Keys all have in common? They all had huge opening numbers, and they are older artists (as in had a career before 2000) or their music is targeted toward audiences that skew older (country; standards and classical music; r&b). Younger generations just buy singles or download illegally.


For some reason, I think even younger audiences buy country. Country fans buys albums. (It's one of the reasons why I think that Casey has a chance of making a bigger profit for his lable than some other Idol runnerups.) Hip hop also does okay. But, yeah, Bocelli and Susan Boyle sell to those who actually buy albums. I don't know just how well the investment in Jason Derulo has paid off, but I can understand why labels might be hesitant to invest a lot in those kinds of artists.

ETA: I win. My post is longer than yours. :lol:

They already know who is playing the Jingle Balls? Dang. I thought it was annoying that the Halloween candy is already out. :lol:

cailuj365
09-13-2010, 05:33 AM
Okay, you've convinced me. Also, I don't know what the Jingle Bell roster is. All I know is that Adam said he was going to be doing radio concerts in NYC and Philadelphia in December...and that sounds like Jingle Ball. Oh, and Sheryl Crowe only recently made it to the HAC chart. You may not hear her song for awhile...unless it flops, lol.

I think the reason why I have never watched this show as an interested music fan is because I think very few of these contestants are worth the time. As someone interested in primarily Top 40 pop music, I feel like this show just showcases mediocre singers/musicians who have no actual star and performance quality, but who just like to sing and play their instruments and are hoping they can do it for a living. Only a handful are actually good, and only a fraction of those will actually become famous enough so that the larger public knows about it.

So, I guess you are right in that Jive is not a sucky label, and maybe I'm trying to blame the label for these artists' lack of commercial success, because to go from 30 million weekly viewers to not even being able to fill 500 seats in Los Angeles is really sad and it shouldn't be true. So really, maybe these poor artists are being directed to a genre that they don't want to sing in (does David even want to do Groban stuff though?) and trying to package them into people that they aren't. And that sucks. And maybe it's all because the producers of American Idol are too stupid to realize that they will never find their next legitimate pop star after Kelly Clarkson if they keep doing Motown weeks. So maybe the not sucky but actually really smart record label recognizes that these people will never be long-term pop stars so they screw them over anyway by not bothering to giving them the good songwriters, and the good songwriters don't bother giving them the good songs.

So maybe in the end, nobody wins. The artist doesn't make the type of music they wanted to make. The hardcore fans are sad for their artist and wish they could listen to what the artist wants to make (or maybe it's just what the fans think that the artist should make), but they also will listen to anything that the artist makes because they're blinded from their love and will stick with them to the very end (I'm not talking about you, allskate, if you're wondering), because if they don't, then who will? The non-Idol-fan public ends up getting these really generic songs on their radio and realizes that American Idol is just some machine and they stop caring about these "stars" that pop up every year. And American Idol doesn't get another legitimate pop star and their ratings go down every season until even the judges start jumping ship and people start going, "WTF is wrong with this show? Why have they resorted to Ryan Seacrest dancing with men in the aisles?"




... :lol: Oh dear, I'm sorry, that was very cynical. Someone is going to come yell at me now and say how it isn't true and that they're enjoying their favorite Idol immensely, so I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I've been trying to study signal transduction for the evening, and it can get kind of depressing.

Allskate
09-13-2010, 06:01 AM
I think the reason why I have never watched this show as an interested music fan is because I think very few of these contestants are worth the time. As someone interested in primarily Top 40 pop music, I feel like this show just showcases mediocre singers/musicians who have no actual star and performance quality, but who just like to sing and play their instruments and are hoping they can do it for a living. Only a handful are actually good, and only a fraction of those will actually become famous enough so that the larger public knows about it.

Yep. That pretty much sums it up.


So, I guess you are right in that Jive is not a sucky label, and maybe I'm trying to blame the label for these artists' lack of commercial success, because to go from 30 million weekly viewers to not even being able to fill 500 seats in Los Angeles is really sad and it shouldn't be true. So really, maybe these poor artists are being directed to a genre that they don't want to sing in (does David even want to do Groban stuff though?) and trying to package them into people that they aren't. And that sucks.

Who knows what he really wants. He was sixteen when he went on the show and had a controlling stage father from hell. But, I wouldn't feel too bad for these singers because they're making money and wouldn't have an album deal at all if not for the show. Once their label drops them, they go make the kind of album they want independently. I just feel bad that there really are some who could make a living doing the kinds of songs they like to do and the label just doesn't want to put in even a little bit of effort to do it. I mean, Clay Aiken, Ruben Studdard, Jordin, Taylor Hicks, and Jordin weren't a natural fit for contemporary radio. But singers like David Cook and Kris Allen, as well as Lee DeWyze should be able to fit modern radio formats doing what they love. I do think that Crystal could make the kind of album she wants and do okay. It's a shame that Jive seems to be pushing her to do straight up pop.


And maybe it's all because the producers of American Idol are too stupid to realize that they will never find their next legitimate pop star after Kelly Clarkson if they keep doing Motown weeks.

I'm not sure it's stupidity, so much as not caring that much if they have a big pop star. That's not where the money is. This is more than anything about producing a tv show, not finding a star or making a music CD. They probably make more money off of one tv episode than they do off the winner's CD. So, they show lots of horrible auditions and they have lots of back stories and have the contest be personality driven. (They don't really think that the finalists they choose are the most talented singers.) They use cheap old music for the contestants to sing and then modernize the show a little by bringing on guest stars like Katy Perry and Usher. I think where the stupid comes in is having such limited range in musical themes and contestants - at least this past season.

Even this past season, which was the worst so far, Idol had big ratings. Jusr like The Bachelor gets viewers even though they all break up and just like America's Got Talent gets good viwership despite the fact that I couldn't name one winner. Eventually, people will get tired Idol, as people tire of almost all shows. And we don't know how bad the entertainers, er, judges will be this season. Simon and Paula really did add something to the show, even if it wasn't always musical expertise.

BigB08822
09-13-2010, 06:05 AM
The concert was amazing! Allison was great, she has really improved with her stage presence. I was glad to see her because it may have been my only chance. :(

Adam was amazing. Killer vocals and great theatrics to tie it all together. My favorite was Fever. I was hoping he would perform Pick U Up and Mad World but he didn't.