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View Full Version : American Idol Finals - May 25 and 26 (All Mediocre Things Must Come To An End)



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PeterG
06-05-2010, 05:28 PM
Actually, I disagree on WWFM not being a good choice for Europe. I didn't think it would be either, but it went to the top of the charts in Germany, Finland, Austria, Netherlands, and a few other places that I can't remember. The FYE music video must have cost Adam and RCA a lot of money that they'll probably not get back, but in the end, I think it does a good job of showing Adam's darker, edgy, and theatrical image. It's a lot more "Glambert" than the one for WWFM.

:shuffle: I think the two songs written by The Script are actually some of the best on the album. The only other one that I really lurve that I think would be great on radio would be "Can't Stay Away." (I'm not a fan of "Alright With Me.")


Again, just because it did well on the charts doesn't mean others wouldn't have done better. (I suspect that WWFM was chosen because it was a Pink song and they could use that in marketing.) And, even if that FYE video shows the Glambert side of Adam, I'm not convinced it justifies the very large expense. And, if they were going to go in that direction, then commit. Why spend so much on a video that isn't going to be seen that much in order to promote a single the label didn't really push?

Let's say that's true, and let's say, for the sake of argument, that "The Truth" is one of the best on the album. (BTW, "Can't Stay Away From You" probably would have been my choice for a single.) How would the label know that at the time it decided to record them? There's no way it could know that. It would have been stupid to promise The Script and Pat Monahan that their songs would be chosen as singles before they even finished choosing and recording material for the album. Really stupid. I just don't buy the idea that these songs and David Cook's singles were chosen as singles because the label guaranteed the songwriters they would be singles in order to get the rights to the material.


There's not much better you can get than Top 10, Top 5, or even #1 (Germany, Finland). I don't know if WWFM is going to be the best-selling track from his album, but it certainly is a very good one for him. I suspect the music video for FYE was filmed before it was sent to radio, but radio apparently gave it poor feedback and would not add/spin it for whatever reason (there is speculation that it was too risque coming from a male - IDK). Rather than leave FYE to flop for months, RCA quickly pulled it and sent in the much safer, less risque WWFM instead (and this was before the AMAs). As a result, most people probably assume WWFM is Adam's first single. Also, I believe the audience and his fans were expecting something big and theatrical from Adam - thus, the big video. The song fits with the video's vibe as well. I'm sure RCA was hoping for FYE to be a hit and for the video to be seen a lot and to make tons of money from it, but these things don't always work out. By the time Adam was doing European promo, WWFM was already climbing in the U.S. I think it makes sense for them to push a song that they know has already done well and to get maximum sales from it. FYE is only the single in two other markets, UK (which fought for that one rather than WWFM) and Japan (which embraces Adam's "glam" style probably more than other countries), but still, the song didn't make much of an impact in sales and is now being replaced by WWFM.

However, I do think Adam wants to go back to his original glam, theatrical style. Hence, the new release of IIHY and the theatrical style of its music video. If his nickname is "Glambert," then he should probably make good on that. Another mid-tempo/slowish song would probably also limit his appeal and be a dud during the summer (California Gurls is the #1 song right now - fun, fresh, light, and happy!) There is only one other uptempo song that I think is catchy enough to release to radio, and that's "Fever" but that song has other issues and also polarizing (some people think it sucks, some love it).

I have no idea if The Script or Pat Monahan were promised anything. All I was saying is that I really like the two songs written by The Script and was contesting your opinion that they weren't good. Although, I agree with you about the single decisions. Neither The Script or Train had its breakout hits when Kris was recording his album, and it seems unlikely that a label would make single choices that far in advance.


But, this doesn't exactly show that RCA has done a great job with Adam's singles, which was the point of this discussion. I doubt RCA is looking back and thinking that what they did with FYE was a good thing. And just because a single get in the top 10, 5, or even number one doesn't mean they couldn't have chosen a single that was better for him. I don't think WWFM is a particularly great song or helps introduce him as the artist he is or wants to be.

I didn't say that those songs weren't good and I don't think that. I just think that they are not wise choices as singles, which was the point of the discussion. I also don't think that LLYD is so incredible that the label would promise to make it a single just to get the rights to record it. Just as you would like to see Adam's Glambert side promoted, I think it would be good to promote Kris as a singer-songwriter. Having his first single be a song by the Script is not a good way to do that. And it wasn't necessary to use that song as the first single since there are other songs -- songs he played a role in writing -- that would have been just as good. "Can't Stay Away" would have been a much smarter choice, IMO. And the only reason I can think of for choosing "The Truth" is to try get some mileage out of the connection with Pat Monahan. It's not one of the better songs on the album and Kris didn't write it. Pat Monahan is not all that and adding his vocals to the track did nothing for the song.

Bottom line: I don't think either RCA or Jive have shown brilliance in their choice of singles with these two guys. Just because the songs aren't bad and some of them did pretty well on the charts doesn't mean the labels made the best decisions.


I think to keep trying to push a single that radio refuses to play is foolish. RCA paid for a very nice video for FYE in support of it, but if radio says "no," then it is better for RCA to switch focus and push a new single - which is exactly what happened. If radio was okay with spinning it, then I think RCA would have pushed it as much as they did with WWFM. Also I'm curious - what song would have been a better choice in your opinion? What song would have sold as well as WWFM is right now? (Because in the end, I think record labels only care about how much money they're making.) What song would have introduced Adam as the artist he wants to be that FYE didn't? FYE is modern dance-pop and also sexual - I think Adam genuinely enjoys that type of music and enjoys being a bit risque too. There's only five tracks on his album that make sense to me as singles, and three have now been released. Again, I'm sure RCA wishes that FYE was a hit rather than having to scramble to release a second single, but I'm also sure RCA didn't go in thinking they had made a bad decision. Dr. Luke produces a lot of smash hits, and they were probably expecting FYE would have been one too. And actually, I do think RCA wanted WWFM as the first single but Adam wanted FYE, so maybe we should all just blame Adam. :P It was also Adam who fought RCA for his ultra-glam, androgynous album cover.

But anyway, I'm not even trying to defend RCA as an good, effective label. I stated in my original post that RCA does a horrible job in picking singles that get radio airplay even if album sales are good. IMO, a successful single gets airplay and gets sales. RCA seems really hit-or-miss. In addition to Adam, within the past year, Christina Aguilera, Daughtry, Kelly, David Cook, Kings of Leon, and even Ke$ha have all had weak debut singles or weak follow-ups after a very successful single. Adam is lucky that WWFM turned out as well as it did.

I wasn't even trying to add to the discussion of Kris' singles here. All I was saying in the beginning was that I loved the two songs that The Script had written on the album, and you said they weren't great! :lol: I actually agree with most of your points above, and I have no idea why his next single is "The Truth." Personally, I think it's really boring and it was one of the few tracks I disliked when I listened to his album. Picking two songs that weren't written by Kris as the singles seems silly to me as well, especially as one of his "selling points" is that he writes his own stuff.


It seemed like they hardly gave FYE any time.

Fever is the one that immediately comes to mind. But, the point is that I think that they mishandled FYE.

Nah. You can't blame Adam. RCA went with it, but didn't really commit. And I actually don't think it's bad to go glam, but if you do, then commit. It doesn't have to be really pop, but then go the more Muse route. Don't introduce WWFM two seconds after FYE. (They hardly gave FYE any chance at all.) And if they're going to go with a more reserved track, I personally don't think that WWFM was the best way to introduce Adam. Not just because the song isn't anything special, but why link him to a Pink castoff? I do think that the labels care about more than just the profits in a small period of time. They want Adam to make profits for them for more than just a few months and that means really introducing him as an artist.

But, they do these things quickly for the debut album, so hopefully they'll handle it better next time around. With Kris I think the period of time was even shorter because they didn't expect to make an album with him. They were expecting to make one with Danny instead.

I assume they started working on A&R for Lee and Crystal some time ago. They do need to find some good material, arrangements, and producers to work with Lee. I listened to his Idolatry interview and I was amazed to hear him say that he thought his version of a "Kiss from A Rose" was, in his words, "awesome." :wall: He doesn't come across as insecure at all in the interview. Quite the opposite. Almost too cocky for his own good. From other reports, he also didn't seem to think that there was any problem with his vocals on finale night, either. Autotune will take care of his pitch problems (which he apparently doesn't hear or care about), but he'll need someone else to let him know when his choices for phrasing, material, etc. just aren't good. If they do that, he should fit in well on hot AC radio.

I think Crystal has a better sense of what works for her. The challenge there will be finding material that works for her and for radio.

Hmm. I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Is it possible you could expand on your thoughts? In 500,000 words or less?

:P

WindSpirit
06-05-2010, 06:59 PM
Hmm. I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Is it possible you could expand on your thoughts? In 500,000 words or less?

:P You had to quote 6 posts and over 2000 words to add 20 that don't even address any of those 2000 words? I have only one word for it: clueless.

I'm not going to edit it because that's worth saving just for the WTH factor. Seriously, dude.

PeterG
06-06-2010, 06:28 AM
It was a joke.

My sincerest apologies.

Allskate
06-07-2010, 06:05 PM
Hmm. I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Is it possible you could expand on your thoughts? In 500,000 words or less?

:P

Sure, I'd be happy to expand on my thoughts. cailuj365 and I are always happy to post very long posts on issues related to certain Idols' careers. :lol: What is exactly you would like us to go on about? ;)

I'm looking forward to hearing any reviews of Adam's concert with Allison and Orianthi. Please post if any of you go!

PeterG
06-07-2010, 06:38 PM
Sure, I'd be happy to expand on my thoughts. cailuj365 and I are always happy to post very long posts on issues related to certain Idols' careers. :lol: What is exactly you would like us to go on about? ;)

Why anything of course! It's all music to my ears. :rofl:


I'm looking forward to hearing any reviews of Adam's concert with Allison and Orianthi. Please post if any of you go!

I'd love to hear reviews as well. Adam (and Allison) were SO good when I saw them on the AI tour. They were my favourites, so anybody who gets to see them is VERY lucky! Here are the tour dates I found after a (very quick) google search. Surely they're doing more than just these dates???


May 22: Comcast Center, Mansfield, MA

June 4: The F.M. Kirby Center for the Performing Arts, Wilkes-Barre, PA

June 5: Starland Ballroom, Sayreville, NJ

June 6: Dutchess Stadium, Wappinger Falls, NY

June 10: Harrah’s Ballroom, Council Bluffs, IA

June 11: Shooting Star Casino, Mahnomen, MN

June 12: Mystic Lake Casino Hotel, Prior Lake, MN

June 22: Nokia Theater, New York, NY

June 24: MGM Grand Theater at Foxwoods, Mashantucket, CT

June 26: Borgata Spa & Resort Event Center, Atlantic City, NJ

July 28: OC Fair – Pacific Amphitheatre, Costa Mesa, CA

Aug. 13: Musikfest, Bethlehem, PA

PrincessLeppard
06-07-2010, 07:43 PM
I'm looking forward to hearing any reviews of Adam's concert with Allison and Orianthi. Please post if any of you go!

Numbers123 and I will be at the Council Bluffs show. :sekret:

Kruss
06-08-2010, 12:10 AM
I won't be at any Adam shows, but I am seeing Kris Allen in July if anyone's interested. I'm also attending the Idol tour in August (hometown show for Lee, should be interesting).

cailuj365
06-08-2010, 03:40 AM
I'll be at the NYC 6/23 Nokia Theatre show for Adam. I'm kind of worried since it's a GA show but there's going to be over 2000 people and I'm pretty short. I have no idea if I will able to see!

Peter G, Adam's tour is +70 dates (:eek:). The dates are posted on his website, and I think they're still adding more. And yes, I could also add more to my discussion with Allskate, but I took a break, lol. There's a rather chatty moderator on the forums at Adam's official website who said something interesting about why Fever could not be a single for Adam so soon (and I pretty much agree). I can post it if you're interested, Allskate?

Allskate
06-08-2010, 05:01 PM
There's a rather chatty moderator on the forums at Adam's official website who said something interesting about why Fever could not be a single for Adam so soon (and I pretty much agree). I can post it if you're interested, Allskate?

Sure. Do they think it's too provocative?

This is my favorite Casey James interview:

http://www.peoplepets.com/news/celebrities/casey-james-embarks-on-idol-tour-armed-with-dog-photos/1

I have dog envy! :lol:

cailuj365
06-10-2010, 03:41 AM
It took me awhile to find the RCA mod's posts, because the thread was actually deleted. I guess he said too much? :lol: He also has his own biases of course, but I like the fact that he just straight up says things without sugarcoating it, haha.

On RCA choosing singles, Fever not being a single, and the challenge of Idols coming off the show:

It's all so relative guys...

Katy Perry's "California Girls" sounds like an unstoppable smash to me, but then I don't even listen to pop music unless I'm forced to, so what do I know? However, I have been doing this line of work for a looong time, so although it's not my job to be an 'ears guy' who picks singles, I have a pretty good sense for them when they have that undeniable "it" appeal. You know how you can tell a true smash from a fake? By whether it actually sticks at radio after the initial rush of adds from stations.

For example, Christina Aguilera's "Not Myself Tonight" was the most added song at top 40 radio this year - based on her reputation alone - but research came back horrific right away, and so the song was dead within a matter of weeks. Ke$ha's second single, "Blah Blah Blah," was only chosen as such because its download sales were massive; almost as large as her first #1 single, "Tik Tok," so we decided to trust the fans over our own, bad research for it. Turns out, our research was right; the single collapsed almost immediately at radio, and we rushed back into our original choice, "Your Love is My Drug," which just went to #1 today. What happened? Who knows, but "Blah Blah Blah" was probably only selling based on its title for some weird reason - those wacky kids!

Anyway, like many of you, I also thought "Fever" was the better single candidate for Adam, but the homosexual reference would have simply been too much to overcome in this America of yours, so accept that sad reality and move on. Adam will probably be able to get away with something like that by his 3rd or 4th album - Madonna did - but he's still not established enough to overcome those prejudices at this stage in his career. Remember, beyond your lunatic core, Adam is NOT as massive an artist as you think he is. I'm also sure that it's easier for a woman to get away with gay references (heck, Katy's career was launched off a gay reference) in our chauvinistic society, but that too can't be changed overnight.

The good news is that Adam is out there bringing the Glam nation tour to you guys, working radio station personnel, and the sooner the FYE project is deemed "ended," the sooner we'll be pushing him back into the studio to record more music. As he has often said himself, longevity is the true mark of career success in this business, and Adam's work ethic is so great I'm sure he'll keep at it until everyone knows his name.

Ironically, his biggest challenge here in the U.S. may be finding a younger audience, like he has established so quickly and effortlessly overseas, beyond the AI-watching cougars. No offense ladies, but that's actually been the undoing of most former Idols so far: the fact that their fan bases are in fact dominated, not by music fans, but by TV fans; mothers and tweens who happen to be interested in those singers while they're lighting up their TV screens, but not necessarily beyond that. Kelly Clarkson broke HUGE by locking in younger demos with "Since You've Been Gone" (another ALL TIMER, where smash singles are concerned); Carrie Underwood broke HUGE by reaching the largely self-contained and idiosyncratic (and in my opinion SUCKAGE-FILLED) Country market; and Daughtry broke HUGE by...well...just seducing every last soccer mom and cougar in America, I suppose - haha!

But look at Daughtry's smaller 2nd album sales (1MM vs. 4MM) and you'll see the precise gap between a TV phenomenon and a music phenomenon, because both albums are equally strong efforts. This theory was proven recently when Daughtry's website had its biggest traffic day ever, when we announced that Chris and his wife were expecting twins. i.e. the traffic was driven by the sort of item you find in People or US magazine - not Rolling Stone or Spin. Lifestyle vs. MUSIC, which is fine for a gossip celebrity, but not a musician, so it reminded us how much work is still ahead to establish Daughtry's music career over his TV career.

The same is true for Adam, and that's why he is wise to focus on his music first and foremost. This is what will keep him growing as a recording artist, whose music can dictate his success above and beyond any other distraction - be it American Idol, his sexuality, etc. Or else, Vegas awaits, and we all know he's cut out for bigger things.

OK, I've been writing this waaaay too long - have to get back to work, but I'll check in later.

On Adam not quite fitting on the radio:

Adam has yet to have a #1 like Gaga or Ke$ha...those things count for something. Adam hasn't had that, and you also have to factor in issues like traffic, style and perception that affect how stations program their playlists. Adam is an oddball/unique artist and so that makes it harder for stations to figure out where he fits into their playlist. Most top 40 stations understand their listeners enough to decide how many female dance artists (Gaga, Ke$ha, etc.), how many corporate rock bands (Daughtry, Nickelback, etc.), how many urban/rhythmic songs, etc., they can have contributing to a balanced playlist. "Balance" being their definition, not ours. So unless a song comes along that's so undeniable it makes these questions of "slotting" irrelevant, it takes a lot more work on our part to explain/convince these stations why they should take a chance on it, wait out the weeks and weeks it'll take for research to come back, and so forth. Billions of details and arguments come into play, and that's, again, why this is a JOB handled by professionals instead of fly by night guesswork. You'd be flabbergasted at the volume of data we crunch week in a bid to convince the stations to play this or that song. Your requests certainly help though, as will the video, the general awareness generated by Adam's tour. The artist also has to do his part to win over those station PDs, MDs, and DJs, of course. We recently had a chat with Adam about this, and I believe he committed to doing the legwork along the tour route. Team effort all around.


He says some more about IIHY and why it's not smashing on the radio, but this post is already getting very long. If anyone's interested, I can post it next time.

Adam's music video for IIHY (with also Allison in it too!) premieres Friday by the way on VH1. VH1 is also doing this great POSTED site (http://www.vh1.com/music/posted/adam-lambert/#fbid=Z4G8jyXv0oO) that's updating with all things Adam during the month of June. It has some nice exclusives too. I think it's better than his official site, tbh. :lol:

Sally1214
06-10-2010, 06:10 AM
Adam's music video for IIHY (with also Allison in it too!) premieres Friday by the way on VH1. VH1 is also doing this great POSTED site (http://www.vh1.com/music/posted/adam-lambert/#fbid=Z4G8jyXv0oO) that's updating with all things Adam during the month of June. It has some nice exclusives too. I think it's better than his official site, tbh. :lol:

Unfortunately, we are unable to view videos on VH1 in Canada. Or, at least, I've never found a way to get around the "this video is not available in your region" problem.

Is there a way for Canadians to view VH1 vids online?

If not ... talk about things that really suck big time!!! :mad:

cailuj365
06-10-2010, 02:00 PM
Unfortunately, we are unable to view videos on VH1 in Canada. Or, at least, I've never found a way to get around the "this video is not available in your region" problem.

Is there a way for Canadians to view VH1 vids online?

Yes, a kind fan has put all of the videos on her youtube channel. (http://www.youtube.com/user/mindchnger)

My favorite part of the site is actually the essays he's been writing about the tour and the upcoming video. So cool!

Allskate
06-10-2010, 09:22 PM
Crystal's Idolatry interview is up:
http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/06/10/crystal-bowersox-idolatry/

cailuj, I kind of get that person's point about Fever, but I don't think it's really all that much "worse" than FYE. And the people who are going to be offended aren't really the target radio audience anyway. I mean, you look at some of the songs and videos from people like Gaga (or even the latest from Miley Cyrus) and I'm not convinced they had to go conservative.

Honestly, I think the biggest challenge for Adam's album is that he had to put it together so quickly and maybe didn't have the best material as a result.

On another front, it's sounding like Casey James is going to be signed to Sony Nashville. He had an encouraging tweet today, and sounded happy, so hopefully he is not only getting a recording deal, but will get to make the kind of music he wants to make. (Also, I think his cousin has created Twitter accounts for his dogs. The tweets are pretty funny. :D)

cailuj365
06-10-2010, 10:07 PM
cailuj, I kind of get that person's point about Fever, but I don't think it's really all that much "worse" than FYE. And the people who are going to be offended aren't really the target radio audience anyway. I mean, you look at some of the songs and videos from people like Gaga (or even the latest from Miley Cyrus) and I'm not convinced they had to go conservative.

I really disagree. The content isn't worse than FYE, but FYE flopped here and internationally, so that's not a great lead. There's tons of faux-lesbianism coming from Gaga and Miley, but female-female is "hot" and they're both established artists with huge hits. Adam's target audience in order to be established like them is the Top 40 radio audience, and Top 40 isn't just Gaga and Katy Perry fans. Urban/rhythmic crossover songs are there too, and the fans of those music are probably less okay with dudes getting it on with dudes. Many Top 40 radio stations skew more toward rhythmic actually. I would love for Adam to release "Fever" too, but I don't think it's the right time. And even if today's generation of teens and 20-somethings are more accepting than in the past, the people at radio stations and corporations who actually control which music gets played aren't necessarily of that same mindset.

But all of this aside, I'm considering it a win if Adam's second single (ignoring FYE) gets significant radio play. That second single seems to be a hard one for Idol alums.

Allskate
06-10-2010, 10:24 PM
I really disagree. The content isn't worse than FYE, but FYE flopped here and internationally, so that's not a great lead.

I think Fever is a better song than FYE, so I'm not sure you can compare them just based on how provocative they are. Plus, as I've said, I don't have the impression that they tried very hard with FYE. Sometimes, the material is to blame. (I don't think Xtina is going to have a huge hit with her new album.) But, sometimes promotion is part of the problem, too. You may have a point about people being more accepting of woman being more provocative in pop music. But, if that's really going to drive Adam and RCA's decision, then they needed to record a different CD.

I'm really curious to hear what Crystal's new album is going to be like. I get the sense, especially from the Idolatry interview, that her inclinations are quite different from at least the Idol producers. She likes more restrained songs like "Holy Toledo," and I'd love an album like that from her. I really hope they don't try to make her into someone she isn't. I like her musical instincts and her vocals.