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VIETgrlTerifa
06-18-2010, 08:42 AM
Other than Kadavy, who really was artistic in 1988? I guess I'm using my 1990s skating perspective as I can't really judge Witt in context. However, I must say that Kat Witt's skating really does not hold up well.

judgejudy27
06-18-2010, 08:50 AM
Kondrashova was very artistic. Probably the most artistic Russian ladies singles skater ever. Too bad she skated with no attack, confidence, and messed up technical elements in competition. I have a feeling she was a stunning practice skater.

VIETgrlTerifa
06-18-2010, 08:51 AM
I'm not familiar with Kondrashova. I need to check her out.

judgejudy27
06-18-2010, 08:55 AM
Here are some clips of her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZZRSyjqPbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_8XhM4n6wo

Marco
06-18-2010, 10:45 AM
Other than Kadavy, who really was artistic in 1988? I guess I'm using my 1990s skating perspective as I can't really judge Witt in context. However, I must say that Kat Witt's skating really does not hold up well.

Witt not holding up well? Try Kerrigan :lol:

CaptCrunch
06-18-2010, 12:16 PM
Regarding the Harding question about her combo in 88 when 2lp was the required jump: I'm pretty sure she was trying 3lt/2lp as her combo that whole season. At NHK she skated clean and beat Witt in the SP finishing 2nd to Ito who was also clean. I believe FS vids has it on file at their site. fsvids.net

At 88 US Nationals Harding fell out of her lutz and had a messy combo trying to add the 2lp after it (if I'm remembering correctly).

While I agree that Witt should have been 3rd or even 4th in the SP in Calgary in 88 I do think her showgirl number was an artistic revelation. I love it. I have no problems with the 5.9's for the 2nd mark. I also love her SP's in both 81 (muppets music, perfect for her at the time) and 84 (although I thought Chin should have won the SP in Sarajevo).

Regarding Anna Kondrashova.....IMO she was not a great practice skater. She was just so sloppy on the jumps. She came very close to winning Europeans back in 1986. Won the SP easily and lost to Witt in the LP by something like a 6-3 split. Just re-watched that event recently and had forgotten how close she was to winning.

orbitz
06-18-2010, 06:51 PM
I do think her [Witt's] showgirl number was an artistic revelation. I love it. I have no problems with the 5.9's for the 2nd mark.


I wouldn't go as far as labeling Witt's Calgary SP an "artistic revelation" :), but I thought Witt was quite charming during the final SLF, and that was what really sold it to the judges and the audience.

orbitz
06-18-2010, 06:56 PM
:respec:

:respec: Best triple axel by a lady EVER!! She [Tonya] jumped almost as high as the top of the boards, incredible.

Check out Ito's 3A in her LP at 1990 Worlds. Now that was the best lady's 3Axel ever. The speed and flow in and out of the jump and the air position were all sublime. Nothing herky jerky or insecure about that jump there. Ito also corked out gorgeous 3A during her pro seasons in 92 and 93.

judgejudy27
06-18-2010, 08:01 PM
Regarding the Harding question about her combo in 88 when 2lp was the required jump: I'm pretty sure she was trying 3lt/2lp as her combo that whole season. At NHK she skated clean and beat Witt in the SP finishing 2nd to Ito who was also clean. I believe FS vids has it on file at their site. fsvids.net

At 88 US Nationals Harding fell out of her lutz and had a messy combo trying to add the 2lp after it (if I'm remembering correctly).

While I agree that Witt should have been 3rd or even 4th in the SP in Calgary in 88 I do think her showgirl number was an artistic revelation. I love it. I have no problems with the 5.9's for the 2nd mark. I also love her SP's in both 81 (muppets music, perfect for her at the time) and 84 (although I thought Chin should have won the SP in Sarajevo).

Regarding Anna Kondrashova.....IMO she was not a great practice skater. She was just so sloppy on the jumps. She came very close to winning Europeans back in 1986. Won the SP easily and lost to Witt in the LP by something like a 6-3 split. Just re-watched that event recently and had forgotten how close she was to winning.

I had no problems at all with straight 5.9s for Witt on the 2nd mark in the Calgary SP. I just think her technical marks should have been lower. Her jump combo was the easiest of anyone in the top 6 and her spins were not really the best of the top women either.

I never knew Anna was that close to winning the 86 European title. Did she actually skate cleanly for once?

Triple Butz
06-18-2010, 08:33 PM
Regarding the Harding question about her combo in 88 when 2lp was the required jump: I'm pretty sure she was trying 3lt/2lp as her combo that whole season. At NHK she skated clean and beat Witt in the SP finishing 2nd to Ito who was also clean. I believe FS vids has it on file at their site. fsvids.net

At 88 US Nationals Harding fell out of her lutz and had a messy combo trying to add the 2lp after it (if I'm remembering correctly).

While I agree that Witt should have been 3rd or even 4th in the SP in Calgary in 88 I do think her showgirl number was an artistic revelation. I love it. I have no problems with the 5.9's for the 2nd mark. I also love her SP's in both 81 (muppets music, perfect for her at the time) and 84 (although I thought Chin should have won the SP in Sarajevo).

Regarding Anna Kondrashova.....IMO she was not a great practice skater. She was just so sloppy on the jumps. She came very close to winning Europeans back in 1986. Won the SP easily and lost to Witt in the LP by something like a 6-3 split. Just re-watched that event recently and had forgotten how close she was to winning.

Thanks, I just downloaded it. Yes, you were right she lands a HUGE 3z/2r combo! I think she knew that to compete with the glam girl trio of Thomas, Kadavy, and Trenary she'd need to bring the big jumps. Too bad it didn't work out for her at nationals. Still, I can't imagine her free program at nationals being worse than Kadavy's which was an utter disaster.

bardtoob
06-18-2010, 09:02 PM
OMG, Tonya had the same content as Christopher Bowman in the SP that season and harder content than Ito. Not only that, but she was in excellent shape, all muscle not an ounce of fat . . . and, yet, she was fully developed (Yes, I mean she had hips and boobs.) and it did not look like it threw off her jumps one bit.

judgejudy27
06-18-2010, 09:18 PM
Such a shame such an incredible skater (Harding from 1986-1990) was rarely seen by the World during that time.

olympic
06-18-2010, 10:06 PM
Such a shame such an incredible skater (Harding from 1986-1990) was rarely seen by the World during that time.

Did Tonya have a prayer of making the team ahead of anyone of Trenary, Kadavy, or Thomas in that '86 - '88 time frame? I'm not aware of how Tonya skated at '87 nats or '88 nats, if she made mistakes and that held her down or it was a strictly 'wait your turn' message from the US judges that kept her off the podium. It sounds like she had the tech content to make waves on the podium even in that time frame...

I do realize the machinations that occurred in '89 when TPTB placed Yamaguchi ahead of her, then her implosion in '90 Nats LP. Would Tonya clean have made the team in '90 ahead of Holly Cook and if so, could she have been a '90 worlds medalist???

DORISPULASKI
06-18-2010, 11:02 PM
I saw her skate in 1989 in Baltimore.

IMO, the judging was completely bogus. Here's how everyone ranked:

Rank Name CF SP FS
1 Jill Trenary 1 2
2 Kristi Yamaguchi 1
3 Tonya Harding 3
4 Holly Cook 3 4
5 Nancy Kerrigan 5
6 Kelly Ann Szmurlo 8
7 Cindy Bortz 6
8 Tonia Kwiatkowski 7
9 Tracey Damigella 9
10 Jenni Meno 10
11 Jennifer Leng 12
12 Kathaleen Kelly 11
13 Kathryn Curielli 13
WD Jeri Campbell 2

Tonya AFAIR was second coming into the LP, skated a great program, but Kristi was scored over her. Kristi was tiny and hardly left a trace on the ice in the school figures. Tonya had pretty good figures-not up to Jill's, but pretty good.

But what was even more bogus was the SP. Jill had been practicing a 3f2t, but on the day, did a 3t2t.

Afterwards, a friend introduced me to one of the judges, who asked me what I thought of the skating. I said I thought that Jill with a 3t2t should not have scored over skaters like Tonya doing 3lz2t.

The judge's first response was, "You noticed that?"

Then she went on to give a little editorial about how important it was all the lower ranked skaters were ranked, like Nancy Kerrigan. I said IMO the most important thing is that you get the top 2 skaters correctly so that we can qualify 3 skaters to worlds next year. And Nancy had splatted horribly all over the ice in the SP--I did not find Nancy key to anything at that point in her life :laugh:

Things got very quiet.

What was interesting, is that the next day, that judge ranked Tonya first in the LP--but it wasn't enough, of course.

Those were the days of non-secret judging.

Even when Tonya wasn't married and was more or less compliant and had arrived well trained, TPTB were not inclined to give her a break. Maybe it was being from ORE. Maybe it was not being coached by one of TPTB.

judgejudy27
06-19-2010, 12:26 AM
Thanks for your insight. Were the judges actually considering putting Nancy on the team in 89 over both Kristi and Tonya if she had actually skated well (well whatever constitutes well for a women who couldnt buy a clean competition to save her life even in her prime) in both the short and long programs that year? That is funny. Nancy was a total nobody that year.

When I hear things like you just said I am even more convinced Tonya was screwed over during the years of her career she actually was skating her best apart from 1991.