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Dr.Siouxs
09-24-2010, 09:04 AM
What I find most annoying is how he focuses on some very random details whilst ignoring everything else.

And yes, he doesn't exactly have a way with words. :P

Well he was actually quite effective up until the whole senility thing.. :cold:

Gwoofer
09-24-2010, 09:08 AM
Who cares about Dick Button anyway ?

He used to be pretty good at explaining the basics and calling the edges - I'm not good at that but the consensus is he's long past that.

Even with that he's always just had "issues" with certain skaters that were just so obviously personal bias and totally uneven. Scott Hamilton is just as bad in his way. When you read some of his books he was happy to play "games" with judges when it was to his advantage but has had hissy fits when it didn't fit his post skating agenda

Gwoofer
09-24-2010, 09:29 AM
B&S did not get a pass from the judges for having pretty faces. Their skating skills - speed & power, quiet blades, postures, lines, unison were among the best ever. The beauty in their skating was extraordinary, and quite often that overcame their inconsistency because as skaters they were head and shoulders above everyone else they were competing against.

They were so good their beauty could make you cry - never got the credit they should have for their genius. They had a pretty long stretch to fully mesh but when they finally did *WoW*

kwanfan1818
09-24-2010, 02:53 PM
Dick is very biased (though he cannot compete with Bezic and Hamilton in that regard). If he dislikes a skater, he won't see anything good about him/her.
Which is why he raved about their edges in the video in this post (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2882506&postcount=952), despite hating them so much. They just could never, ever do anything right. Sure.

IneZR
09-24-2010, 05:40 PM
B&S did not get a pass from the judges for having pretty faces. Their skating skills - speed & power, quiet blades, postures, lines, unison were among the best ever. The beauty in their skating was extraordinary, and quite often that overcame their inconsistency because as skaters they were head and shoulders above everyone else they were competing against.

Yes, I agree, they both were extraordinary skaters, perfect in all areas. What I was trying to say is that although Elena/Anton were clearly head and shoulders above everyone else, their beautiful balletic style and good looks made them even more appealing to the general public and the judges. I remember when I saw them live for the first time: they had a rough skate, Elena fell from the throw, but they were still so damn good and SO beautiful, almost ethereal - I think I could just sit there with an open mouth and watch them doing simple crossovers for hours.

escaflowne9282
09-24-2010, 06:46 PM
They were so good their beauty could make you cry - never got the credit they should have for their genius. They had a pretty long stretch to fully mesh but when they finally did *WoW*

Actually, Looking at V&T and K&S really makes me appreciate B&S more and how quickly their skills came together . Earlier in this thread there were comments that V&T looked quite slow, and there was the observation that K&S were in the same boat when they started skating as well; the general consensus being that most pairs and dance start out slow with speed and power coming over time. With B&S, they were insanely fast right out of the gate.

loopey
09-24-2010, 07:34 PM
B&S did not get a pass from the judges for having pretty faces. Their skating skills - speed & power, quiet blades, postures, lines, unison were among the best ever. The beauty in their skating was extraordinary, and quite often that overcame their inconsistency because as skaters they were head and shoulders above everyone else they were competing against.So very true. Every word.


Actually, Looking at V&T and K&S really makes me appreciate B&S more and how quickly their skills came together . ... With B&S, they were insanely fast right out of the gate.
They were ridiculous fast. When you saw them skate even in 1997, it seemed like the ice wasn't big enough for them. What's kind of strange is if you look at old video of each of them with their old partners, neither of the old pairings seem to have as much speed as B/S.

But in fairness to V/T, they may be victim to the Information Age (Internet). We were not privy to "practice" video when B/S first started skating. The first time we saw them together was after months of merging and working out the kinks. While I am excited to see these practice clips of V/T because I am interested and well nosy, I think Worlds is 5 months away and when we see the "final" product it may not look anything like what we see today. JMO

julieann
09-24-2010, 07:52 PM
Actually, Looking at V&T and K&S really makes me appreciate B&S more and how quickly their skills came together . Earlier in this thread there were comments that V&T looked quite slow, and there was the observation that K&S were in the same boat when they started skating as well; the general consensus being that most pairs and dance start out slow with speed and power coming over time. With B&S, they were insanely fast right out of the gate.

But both B/S had pretty good partners prior to getting together. Just like V/T had, except V/T had better partners. With Shliakov, Elena did pretty well as did Anton with Petrova. They didn't get on the podium too much but 4th or 5the in the world is pretty good.

I guess that is what surprises me most about V/T is, if you look at how they performed as single skaters at the Olympics it was very impressive and that should not have changed because they switched partners. But it seems to me their individual skating has taken a step backward and I'm not sure why. All of a sunned she can't land a triple and he can't a double? I can understand the throws being off at first especially of the hand holds were different, but why is the single skating lagging?

K/S seemed to be much further ahead at this stage when they were first together and they had bad former partners.

loopey
09-24-2010, 08:13 PM
I guess that is what surprises me most about V/T is, if you look at how they performed as single skaters at the Olympics it was very impressive and that should not have changed because they switched partners. But it seems to me their individual skating has taken a step backward and I'm not sure why. All of a sunned she can't land a triple and he can't a double? I can understand the throws being off at first especially of the hand holds were different, but why is the single skating lagging?

K/S seemed to be much further ahead at this stage when they were first together and they had bad former partners.
All timing on individual moves such as spins and jumps are subject to re-work for the sake of the team. Maybe we are just seeing some of these adjustments early on.

As for speed, if all else fails... blame the coach. Who is at the boards yelling "push", "speed", "move" to get them going? Some coaches work on technique and think speed can come later. Others push speed first and foremost and you learn the elements at a high speed. I know nothing about Mozer as a coach.

Ziggy
09-24-2010, 10:01 PM
Well he was actually quite effective up until the whole senility thing.. :cold:

Yes - I do have to stress that I only listened to some of Dick's commentary in recent years and have no clue about how it used to be, back when he was younger.


But in fairness to V/T, they may be victim to the Information Age (Internet). We were not privy to "practice" video when B/S first started skating. The first time we saw them together was after months of merging and working out the kinks. While I am excited to see these practice clips of V/T because I am interested and well nosy, I think Worlds is 5 months away and when we see the "final" product it may not look anything like what we see today. JMO

Good comment.

In the past, you would never get to see skaters who weren't ready.

Now we are able to get more insights and have nothing to compare them to.

Maybe after only 4 months together B/S looked similarly?

In any case, I think V/T's basic stuff looks very well for that short space of time, their basic skating is quite well matched, there is good chemistry between them and sbs spins are surprisingly well synched.

Shame about their programs but then you can't really expect complex choreography from skaters who are just learning to skate as a couple.

Cloudy_Gumdrops
09-24-2010, 10:13 PM
Shame about their programs but then you can't really expect complex choreography from skaters who are just learning to skate as a couple.

Having Morozov as a choreographer doesn't help either. When's the last time he bothered creating anything complex?

Ziggy
09-25-2010, 03:41 AM
Having Morozov as a choreographer doesn't help either. When's the last time he bothered creating anything complex?

The last interesting programs he did that I can remember are Takahashi's "Cyber Swan" and Ando's "Sheherezade" SPs and that was a long time ago. ;)

Vash01
09-25-2010, 06:34 AM
So very true. Every word.


They were ridiculous fast. When you saw them skate even in 1997, it seemed like the ice wasn't big enough for them. What's kind of strange is if you look at old video of each of them with their old partners, neither of the old pairings seem to have as much speed as B/S.

But in fairness to V/T, they may be victim to the Information Age (Internet). We were not privy to "practice" video when B/S first started skating. The first time we saw them together was after months of merging and working out the kinks. While I am excited to see these practice clips of V/T because I am interested and well nosy, I think Worlds is 5 months away and when we see the "final" product it may not look anything like what we see today. JMO

I agree about the information age, but I think B&S were truly exceptional in how quickly they developed as a pair. I remember one comment from Katia Gordeeva when they had been together less than two years, and Katia said they looked like they had been skating together for 10 years!

Going back, when I first saw them skate at one of the GPs (1996), they had been skating together for only a few months. Elena's accident took place in Jan/Feb. For quite sometime she did not even skate, and when they did start skating, Tamara said she did not know what she (Elena) would be capable of. I am guessing that for a couple of months they did not do anything special, and from Dorothy Hamill's comment it sounded like they did not do any serious skating until July. They were already competing in late Oct/early Nov. and they already had a lot of speed, but Elena could not hold the landings on the throws. By the 1997 GPs they were winning medals and they had so much speed that Peter Carruthers was comparing them with Rodnina-Zaitsev. In their Dark Eyes LP they seemed like flying off the ice, and who can forget their Swan Lake SP at the European championships in 1998? It was breathtaking stuff.

grandma
09-25-2010, 10:37 AM
loved B/S they were such a fantastic pair :)

grandma
09-25-2010, 10:38 AM
Actually, Looking at V&T and K&S really makes me appreciate B&S more and how quickly their skills came together . Earlier in this thread there were comments that V&T looked quite slow, and there was the observation that K&S were in the same boat when they started skating as well; the general consensus being that most pairs and dance start out slow with speed and power coming over time. With B&S, they were insanely fast right out of the gate.

It might have something to do with the fact that B/S came from the same coach. (Moskvina)
I have quite often seen skaters changing from one partner to the other , but having learned theier basics with the same trainer don`t have these problems.
Mozer for example is known for having many pairs which she switches around if she thinks it might work out better with different partners.