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mgobluegirl
08-30-2010, 04:59 AM
I think it's funny that a few weeks ago, everyone was ready to write off Zhang forever. One post about "changing her technique" and she's suddenly a contender again? Technique doesn't completely change in one summer. I'll believe it when I see it.

Nomad
08-30-2010, 05:07 AM
I think it's funny that a few weeks ago, everyone was ready to write off Zhang forever. One post about "changing her technique" and she's suddenly a contender again? Technique doesn't completely change in one summer. I'll believe it when I see it.

How many posters are calling her a contender? Granted, I'm not discounting her completely, but I'm also keeping in mind that the PB cited by haribobo is three years old.

Marco
08-30-2010, 05:25 AM
Bogus downgrades :rolleyes:. Her SP was perfect, her LP was perfect to the blind eye - no step outs or shaky landings or anything like that.

Clean =/= perfect. With all due respect for her mid-air awareness, between the sloppy lutz & flip technique, unimpressive jump quality, the weak non-jumping elements, the poor posture, the lack of extension, the below-average speed, ice coverage and the edging, she can hardly be called perfect even if she lands all the jumps in the world.


They took a huge gamble sending her to 4CC after an 11th place National finish, and their gamble paid off.

:huh: What part of "she was next in line after those who finished ahead of her at Nationals either did not want to go, did not put their names on the list, or was not age eligible" don't you understand from the 500 other times someone explained to you that there was no 'gamble' involved?


Second, I firmly believe that Zawadzki, at her best, would more than crack the top 6 at Worlds -- she could medal. Her jumps get fabulous GOE, her spins are wonderful, and she has great presentation. If she makes it to Worlds AND goes clean in both programs per your scenario, she will be a major threat.

Love her jumps. But a fair judge would not give her above 6 for skating skills. She needs to switch to a coach that can teach her some decent basics.


Maybe Gao can medal at Worlds this year :). Full arsenal of triple jumps, with a fixed lutz, and a solid 3f-3t combination in both the SP and LP, and working on a 2a-3t in the LP as well. Pretty impressive, I tend to think she could edge out a Lepisto full of doubles with all that content.

Like Zawadzki, big jumps aside, she does not have nearly the kind of basics and presentation to take on the Japanese, Yuna (if she is there), and the top Europeans. But if she goes clean, I can see a top 6 out of her, but most likely no further. With the rate she is going, she does have a good shot at making Worlds this coming season. Although I hope the berths go to Mirai and Ashley... (just so I can say suck it to whoever that started the "US ladies are slow?" thread) :P If Ashley can't fix her jumps or gain a 3/3, then sending Mirai and Gao is okay too, but the prospective of regaining the 3rd spot is probably even less.


I think it's funny that a few weeks ago, everyone was ready to write off Zhang forever. One post about "changing her technique" and she's suddenly a contender again? Technique doesn't completely change in one summer. I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't think more than one person here believes in those drastic changes in Zhang's jumps. She needs to fix her technique on 4 out 6 types of jumps, and technique does not mean quality. And none of these would even matter if she is still going to skate like a snail.

RD
08-30-2010, 05:34 AM
RD,

How is Flatt on a "downward trend?" She skated incredibly well at both Nationals and the Olympics, but looked utterly exhausted from her long season at Worlds. I don't think her first outing this summer is entirely indicative of how she'll perform later on this season, nor do I think it indicates any sort of "downward trend."

Maybe you're right. But it struck me that she started out as 5th at 2009 Worlds...did pretty well there, considering things. Then she struggled a bit at the start of the 2009/10 season but shaped up by Nationals. She went to Vancouver as the reigning champ, but got hit with a couple of phantom DGs in the FS, putting her in 7th. And then at worlds, she slipped to 9th. Her international standing is headed in a direction, all right- and it's certainly not up!

I saw some of her FS on Youtube and I really think it is bleh. Unfortunately Flatt is no Lipinski or Hughes and her best has her in 5th or 6th.


I think it's funny that a few weeks ago, everyone was ready to write off Zhang forever. One post about "changing her technique" and she's suddenly a contender again? Technique doesn't completely change in one summer. I'll believe it when I see it.

Same here. I never was ready to write off Zhang, though. I was going to give her one more season in case it was the stress of the Oly season that caused her to sink so quickly in the standings. I knew, however, that if she did not overhaul her technique, she'd probably be good for just this season and then either long-term injury will take her out, or she will be surpassed by the current and upcoming generation. That said, I have her with Czisny as the Contenders least likely to challenge for the World team/US championship this year. Nagasu (assuming she's healthy), Flatt and Wagner have a better shot. At least, according to pre-season analysis. Once the GP events begin, who knows.

bek
08-30-2010, 08:58 AM
Like Zawadzki, big jumps aside, she does not have nearly the kind of basics and presentation to take on the Japanese, Yuna (if she is there), and the top Europeans. But if she goes clean, I can see a top 6 out of her, but most likely no further. With the rate she is going, she does have a good shot at making Worlds this coming season. Although I hope the berths go to Mirai and Ashley... (just so I can say suck it to whoever that started the "US ladies are slow?" thread) If Ashley can't fix her jumps or gain a 3/3, then sending Mirai and Gao is okay too, but the prospective of regaining the 3rd spot is probably even less.


Honestly, a part of me thinks that besides Nagasu the "American" most likely to make a really big splash on the World scene this year is Marakova. ( Isn't she a US citizen? Well she has very good jumps and now that lutz, very good spins, very good basics and nice presentation. I really like what I saw with her short. It would be ironic for the USFSA if she became the first American to end up on the World podium since Meissner. And I actually think that could potentially happen. Please don't get me wrong given her family history, her skating for Russia makes a lot of sense, but I'm sure it would be frustrating for the USFSA.

Marco
08-30-2010, 01:34 PM
Honestly, a part of me thinks that besides Nagasu the "American" most likely to make a really big splash on the World scene this year is Marakova. ( Isn't she a US citizen? Well she has very good jumps and now that lutz, very good spins, very good basics and nice presentation. I really like what I saw with her short. It would be ironic for the USFSA if she became the first American to end up on the World podium since Meissner. And I actually think that could potentially happen. Please don't get me wrong given her family history, her skating for Russia makes a lot of sense, but I'm sure it would be frustrating for the USFSA.

Love her.

But judges have been rather lukewarm to her rather strong performances last season. To make a splash, something has to significantly change: adding a lutz is a start, but her programs last season were void of any PCS content (transitions, difficult timing and pattern timed with music, one foot skating, back loading etc) that unless she significantly improved in these areas, I can't see a drastic improvement in her PCS.

Unfortunately since she has stayed with Galina and Petrenko for the season I doubt anything will have changed. Just look at Petrenko, Baiul and then Johnny.

Time for some GP medals, a trip to GPF and then a Euro medal, I say. World medal, probably not yet.

bek
08-30-2010, 02:01 PM
But judges have been rather lukewarm to her rather strong performances last season. To make a splash, something has to significantly change: adding a lutz is a start, but her programs last season were void of any PCS content (transitions, difficult timing and pattern timed with music, one foot skating, back loading etc) that unless she significantly improved in these areas, I can't see a drastic improvement in her PCS.


I don't think it was just about the judges being lukewarm, I think she was a new skater to without a 3lutz. She hadn't even done the Senior GP. If you look at her short program, the transitions have improved a little bit. At least she has a transition going into her double axel (in and out).

I have a feeling she's going to get more support this year being the top Russian lady and one of the best prospects to come out of Europe in years. There WAS backlash about Lepisto's bronze whether you like it or not, and Ksensia at least has the jumps to be competitive and is consistent. With the new 3lutz and if she skates consistently, she just might be the Euros Champion this year. Plus the 3lutz/3toe in practice can be a game changer as well. I do hope that Galina and Victor continue to work on giving this girl programs that will make her competitive because she really is quite talented. I love how good her posture is and her lines. (The only thing is I wonder if she has "fire" so to speak.

As for a world medal this year, I agree maybe not. But if Kim doesn't come back it could be possible. The scenario last year for bronze was messy all the way around.

pinky166
08-30-2010, 05:05 PM
Honestly, a part of me thinks that besides Nagasu the "American" most likely to make a really big splash on the World scene this year is Marakova. ( Isn't she a US citizen? Well she has very good jumps and now that lutz, very good spins, very good basics and nice presentation. I really like what I saw with her short. It would be ironic for the USFSA if she became the first American to end up on the World podium since Meissner. And I actually think that could potentially happen. Please don't get me wrong given her family history, her skating for Russia makes a lot of sense, but I'm sure it would be frustrating for the USFSA.

I really like Ksenia, but I don't think she's World medal material yet. I mean, she was only on the JGP last season and the scores she put up there weren't that high she scored 137.94 at Lake Placid, 126.42 at Minsk, 147.29 at the JGPF. Then at Euros she scored 146.85. Between Euros and Olympics/Worlds she made a big leap score wise and was putting up very good scores by the last 2 competitions of the season and really put her name on the map. I'd say this season she should be able to win at least one GP medal, either qualify for or be an alternate for the GPF, medal at Euros and finish in the top 10 at Worlds. Medaling at Worlds is probably a stretch this season, especially if Yuna competes and Ksenia's jump layout is front loaded and only includes 1 lutz and 1 flip, similar to last year's. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that she could medal at Worlds though.

Keep in mind though that Christina beat Ksenia at the JGPF, so it shows the two are fairly comparable at this point, and that when moving from junior to senior competitions a large jump in scores can be expected.

pinky166
08-30-2010, 05:08 PM
Siraj 140
Jiang 131

PCS in junior competitions is always a lot lower so the 140 for Siraj is not that telling. Also, Nina Jiang is staying junior nationally for another season, a smart move IMO given that she's 13 and won't be senior ISU competition eligible until the 2012-2013 season.

blade runner
08-30-2010, 05:35 PM
Zawadzki has the whole package, hugh effortless jumper, flexible, spins well, and her skating skills are very good. The people who say Agnes's skating skills are not good enough are really reaching, because they know they can't knock her on jumps and spins.

She is also very consistent, she will be hard to beat.

I also really like how Nagasu carries the ice she has all the qualities you look for in a skater as well. It will be between her and Agnes this year for the USA.

I also noticed some people on this board only like a certain type of skater!:wideeyes:

haribobo
08-30-2010, 05:45 PM
Ksenia Makarova was 5th at the SP in Worlds 2010, and less than 10 points below bronze overall. I'm with bek, she is definitely at least a bronze medal contendor this year, I don't care how many times she beat or lost to pinky, er, Christina Gao last year. ;)

bek
08-30-2010, 05:49 PM
Zawadzki has the whole package, hugh effortless jumper, flexible, spins well, and her skating skills are very good. The people who say Agnes's skating skills are not good enough are really reaching, because they know they can't knock her on jumps and spins.

She is also very consistent, she will be hard to beat.

I also really like how Nagasu carries the ice she has all the qualities you look for in a skater as well. It will be between her and Agnes this year for the USA.

I also noticed some people on this board only like a certain type of skater!:wideeyes:

I like Agnes jumps AND I like Agnes's style. What I don't like about Agnes when I watch her is how slow she seems to move accross the ice. Her stroking needs work, if Agnes could fix the stroking she would instantly be top 3 in the world, but unless she does, I'm sorry but its an issue. When you compare Agnes to the beautiful flow and glide some of the others get across the ice..

The biggest criticizm of Agnes is not her star quality or style. The biggest criticism is her flow across the ice, and I think that's really a quite basic thing from a skater. I think that with the right coach someone who focuses on something other than jumps this could be fixed.

Agnes though is definetly better than Gao though. I don't think Gao has the best flow accross the ice either yet and Agnes is much more polished, has better jumps and more star quality.

chipso1
08-30-2010, 05:54 PM
I like Agnes jumps AND I like Agnes's style. What I don't like about Agnes when I watch her is how slow she seems to move accross the ice. Her stroking needs work, if Agnes could fix the stroking she would instantly be top 3 in the world, but unless she does, I'm sorry but its an issue.

Have you seen her skate in person? Or just seen not-so-great quality YouTube videos? I saw her live in Spokane and her speed was average: she's not Carolina Kostner, but then again she's far from having Caroline Zhang-esq speed, too. Agnes has soft knees and smooth stroking across the ice. She certainly warrants better than 6's for PCS, and I'm sure most who have seen her skate live would agree.

bek
08-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Have you seen her skate in person? Or just seen not-so-great quality YouTube videos? I saw her live in Spokane and her speed was average: she's not Carolina Kostner, but then again she's far from having Caroline Zhang-esq speed, too. Agnes has soft knees and smooth stroking across the ice. She certainly warrants better than 6's for PCS, and I'm sure most who have seen her skate live would agree.

No I haven't. Oh don't get me wrong, I definety realize she's not Zhang. :lol: But I think against the likes of Nagasu, Rochette, Kim, Mao (and even yes Murakami as we saw at Junior Worlds its an issue)

Agnes has all the talent in the world and its really that one issue that doesn't put her in a league frankly as a top 3 skater in the world.

blade runner
08-30-2010, 06:09 PM
Have you seen her skate in person? Or just seen not-so-great quality YouTube videos? I saw her live in Spokane and her speed was average: she's not Carolina Kostner, but then again she's far from having Caroline Zhang-esq speed, too. Agnes has soft knees and smooth stroking across the ice. She certainly warrants better than 6's for PCS, and I'm sure most who have seen her skate live would agree.

Chipso1 you are right on, when you see her in person you can appreiciate her even more. Agnes is so powerful she does not have to get as deep in the knees to obtain speed. I do think she should work on stroking a little more and I imagine she will. We have to remember she just turned 16 not long ago. ;)