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RD
08-29-2010, 11:10 PM
I do believe that what we all suspect is actually true - that the USFSA somehow uses ISU results to massage National scores. Now ISU results won't override a 20 point difference. But in nearly equal performances, ISU results will be a factor.

I do too.

The question is, is this true for any of the other National competitions? (does Skate Canada do this? JSF?)

JerseySlore
08-29-2010, 11:17 PM
I do too.

The question is, is this true for any of the other National competitions? (does Skate Canada do this? JSF?)

JSF doesn't need to manipulate scores/ranking at nats because they take into account international results in selection criteria. Skate Canada didn't have qualms about declaring "newbie" Patrick Chan champion over Buttle or giving lead to Phaneuf over Rochette in sp portion. I'm sure other federations refer to ISU ranking and international results, but to lesser degree than USFSA.

Sylvia
08-29-2010, 11:20 PM
I do believe that what we all suspect is actually true - that the USFSA somehow uses ISU results to massage National scores. Now ISU results won't override a 20 point difference. But in nearly equal performances, ISU results will be a factor.
Then how would you explain Mirai Nagasu finishing 2nd ahead of Ashley Wagner at 2010 Nationals?

For the record, I'm not included in your "all." ;)

chipso1
08-29-2010, 11:30 PM
I maintain that the US' best hope at the moment is a healthy, consistent Nagasu. Her Oly performance would clearly have earned her a medal at Worlds. Without the above, there is no hope for return. Honestly. Every other US skater, even at her best, would barely crack the top 6.

A few things...first, I agree that a healthy Nagasu is world-class, but to be honest, I'm a bit worried about her "breakability." This is her second major injury in the past two years. Second, I firmly believe that Zawadzki, at her best, would more than crack the top 6 at Worlds -- she could medal. Her jumps get fabulous GOE, her spins are wonderful, and she has great presentation. If she makes it to Worlds AND goes clean in both programs per your scenario, she will be a major threat.


For the record, I'm not included in your "all." ;)

Me, either.

pinky166
08-29-2010, 11:32 PM
Then how would you explain Mirai Nagasu finishing 2nd ahead of Ashley Wagner at 2010 Nationals?

For the record, I'm not included in your "all." ;)

Ashley beat Mirai in the FS at nationals by 4 points, and she had 6 ratified triples while Mirai had 3, clearly that shows Mirai is the superior skater. Further, Nagasu was more of a wild card, she had not had great ISU results recently because of URs, but she did very well on the JGP and at Junior Worlds in previous seasons. Ashley had just come off a 4th place finish at the GPF where she had such a great opportunity to medal considering Rochette and Leonova tanked, and she still couldn't pull it off even though both Ando and Kim were extremely lackluster. Chances are, the same thing would have happened at the Olympics, where even a perfect Flatt couldn't beat a lackluster Ando, but Mirai managed to beat her without a 3-3.

If Alissa can become consistent this season and has a solid 3-3 she could probably put up the highest scores internationally apart from Nagasu....but that is a big if. Plus the USFSA may be hesitant to send her to Worlds at this point, but if she proves herself in both her GPs and at nationals, then she probably deserves another shot.

Polymer Bob
08-29-2010, 11:35 PM
Then how would you explain Mirai Nagasu finishing 2nd ahead of Ashley Wagner at 2010 Nationals?


Simple, Ashley made the Grand Prix Final, but did not overwhelm and overpower Mirai. In her 2 GP events, Mirai averaged 156.105, while Ashley averaged 159.98. That's less than a 4 point difference. Then she managed 162.07 and 4th place at the Final.

Had Ashley made the Final in more convincing fashion, and did better at the event, I think she would have made the Olympic team. Either she would have scored above Mirai at Nationals, or been put on the team despite finishing lower.

Nomad
08-29-2010, 11:35 PM
... a perfect Flatt couldn't beat a lackluster Ando, but Mirai managed to beat her without a 3-3.

Didn't Flatt get downgrades in Vancouver?

pinky166
08-29-2010, 11:37 PM
Didn't Flatt get downgrades in Vancouver?

Bogus downgrades :rolleyes:. Her SP was perfect, her LP was perfect to the blind eye - no step outs or shaky landings or anything like that.

pinky166
08-29-2010, 11:42 PM
Simple, Ashley made the Grand Prix Final, but did not overwhelm and overpower Mirai. In her 2 GP events, Mirai averaged 156.105, while Ashley averaged 159.98. That's less than a 4 point difference. Then she managed 162.07 and 4th place at the Final.

Had Ashley made the Final in more convincing fashion, and did better at the event, I think she would have made the Olympic team. Either she would have scored above Mirai at Nationals, or been put on the team despite finishing lower.

Agreed. The reality was that Mirai WITH all the downgrades, had scores very comparable to Ashley on the GP circuit last season. Therefore, the USFSA probably realized that if Mirai could fix her URs, her scores would be higher than Ashley's, and even if she didn't fix her URs, her results at Olympics and Worlds would likely be similar to Ashley's. The US could pretty much predict what would happen if they sent Ashley, likely a 6th-12th (most likely 6th-10th) place finish at Olys/Worlds, but with Mirai, she had the possibility of finishing higher than that, which she did at the Olympics, and even at Worlds where she had some problems, she finished 7th which is in Ashley's projected range.

Jayar
08-29-2010, 11:42 PM
Gao, Cesario and Gong have been training full-out all summer, so it's a bit unfair to compare Kiri to them right now. I'm sure she'll continue to improve in the next few weeks. :)

Judges don't care. I think it is very fair to compare Baga to everyone else... they all have to skate at the same Nationals. She knows where she is now in terms of where everyone else is... that's the most important thing. And she has her work cut out for her.

pinky166
08-29-2010, 11:46 PM
Judges don't care. I think it is very fair to compare Baga to everyone else... they all have to skate at the same Nationals. She knows where she is now in terms of where everyone else is... that's the most important thing. And she has her work cut out for her.

Agreed. Kiri might surprise us and win her JGP though....she's a very hot and cold skater. Her results from the competition a couple weeks ago could have been a "cold" day for her.

Nomad
08-29-2010, 11:53 PM
Bogus downgrades :rolleyes:. Her SP was perfect, her LP was perfect to the blind eye - no step outs or shaky landings or anything like that.

Who was the tech specialist? Mrs. Piseev or that other eville Russian - can't think of her name, something like Bazarova, but she's infamous for slapping skaters down with questionable UR calls.

Polymer Bob
08-30-2010, 12:01 AM
I'm not even going to speculate on Zhang. I hope her skating has improved since last season.

Caroline has 2 things working in her favor. Every report I've seen all summer indicates her techniques have improved drastically. ( Of course, that is not proof. ) Also, the USFSA has consistently seen that she can, when uninjured, get decent scores from ISU judges. They took a huge gamble sending her to 4CC after an 11th place National finish, and their gamble paid off.

JerseySlore
08-30-2010, 12:10 AM
I hope everything works out for Caroline, and she had a pretty good showing at 4cc. But I do want to point out USFSA didn't gamble by sending her to 4cc, as nothing was really on stake.

Lanna
08-30-2010, 12:16 AM
Simple, Ashley made the Grand Prix Final, but did not overwhelm and overpower Mirai.

I am amazed at how your conspiracy theories stretch and twist. Can you also tell us who really shot JFK?