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skatak
05-07-2010, 12:22 PM
Well, you didn't specify that it had to be on ice. Here's something a little different: A man with a leg wrap. (World Roller Artistic Champion Scott Cohen). Wow!! Look at all those triples done with a wrap. :eek:
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I never could understand why ice is so down on wrapped jumps. :confused: Admittedly, it is less areodynamic, but as these skaters demonstrate, jumps certainly can be done that way....I think it goes back to the idea of ballet. The whole skating = ballet on ice thing and the pointed toes on tours l'air in ballet...

Anyways, this clip is worth watching for just for the costume malfunction. :lol: I can't believe he skated almost the whole routine that way and it didn't distract him enough to mess up. :eek:



amazing !
-> the leg wrap is not on all the jumps, the 3T is great
-> he actually does a small waltz jump before the 3Lp to gain momentum
-> really fun how he tries to got off his top during all his spins
-> I had never heard Enya used in a program before
-> the musical mix is... very wide

As for leg wrap, it was just amazing how Midori would wrap his first 3T, but did not do it on the second 3T of the 3T-3T combo. With the technique used on the second 3T, the quad should not have been far !

In France we had some several years ago a female skaters with such a bad leg wrap... she appeared once at Nationals, nobody understood how she got there with only 2Z (if I remember correctly). On each jump I was afraid she would slash her hip with the back of the blade...
Also if my memory is correct, Leslie Deriviere had a leg wrap, but could land all triples (JPG 2000... ?)

Rex
05-07-2010, 12:57 PM
Oh Amber! :swoon:

Lovely leg wrap on so many of her jumps -- and she did those fabulously egregious lips and toe axels to boot! Absolutely love her!

One of the old skating boards I belonged to had a member called ACCL. When someone asked him/her/it what the initials stood for, she replied, "Amber Corwin's Cheated Lutz". :P But she rocked the tiaras and headbands at least :P.
And sometimes her choreo was like interpretive dance.

floskate
05-07-2010, 01:23 PM
Yep she did.

Ito for my mind had the best leg wrap. It worked because she kept her hip position open so she had no problem landing the jumps.



Not only that but she was able to manipulate the wrap at will depending on how much rotation she wanted. If she went up super high she let the leg go where it naturally wanted to be, but if she had a wonky take-off or not quite the air she was expecting, she could instantly adjust the crossed leg position to speed up rotation. Her body awareness in the air was truly amazing.

Midori's wrap was much worse as a child. By the time she was competing internationally in seniors from 1984 onwards they weren't nearly so high....except the loop of course ;) But it never bothered me. It just added to the excitement of her jumps IMO.

pinky166
05-07-2010, 01:29 PM
Alissa Czisny. It was always elegant.

Firefly123
05-07-2010, 01:32 PM
skatak,
Yes, I think ice considers a clear wrap on a jump a negative GOE and you get marked down for it. On roller, a wrap is still considered acceptable (at least in the sense that it is not an automatic deduction for "poor air position.") Ice hates wrap. :(

MikiAndoFan#1
05-07-2010, 02:20 PM
Alissa Czisny. It was always elegant.

Alissa does not have a leg warp.

:huh:

pinky166
05-07-2010, 05:06 PM
Alissa does not have a leg warp.

:huh:

She used to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KsUNC4cMb8 . See?

Fergus
05-07-2010, 06:52 PM
*deleted*

MikiAndoFan#1
05-07-2010, 09:22 PM
She used to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KsUNC4cMb8 . See?

No, I don't see. How is that considered a leg wrap?

:o

piano18
05-07-2010, 09:50 PM
Midori and Yukari N. come to mind, fo sure! Especially Midori!

Ziggy
05-07-2010, 10:32 PM
skatak,
Yes, I think ice considers a clear wrap on a jump a negative GOE and you get marked down for it. On roller, a wrap is still considered acceptable (at least in the sense that it is not an automatic deduction for "poor air position.") Ice hates wrap. :(

I don't think any judge has ever deducted for that. ;)

gkelly
05-07-2010, 11:26 PM
I spoke to some coaches and skaters about it and I was told that past a certain age it's too late. All you can do is minimise it slightly.


That probably comes from skaters who can't be bothered to fix it and coaches who don't know how to fix it. I have seen quite a few skaters who have fixed the problem.

So how old were they at the time? ;)


skatak,
Yes, I think ice considers a clear wrap on a jump a negative GOE and you get marked down for it. On roller, a wrap is still considered acceptable (at least in the sense that it is not an automatic deduction for "poor air position.") Ice hates wrap. :(

I think that's overstating the case. There may be individual judges who really hate any form of wrap, but I think in general it's just considered less than ideal form and can make a difference if a judge is debating between two adjacent GOEs.

My understanding is that the worst wrap is when the knee (as opposed to the ankle) of the free leg is crossed over the knee or thigh of the landing leg, with the hips turned in, because that kind of air position is often associated with cheated jumps.

So the judges (and, now, tech panels) will be on the lookout for underrotation and penalize that.

Skaters with that technique rarely master triple jumps and rarely reach the elite levels, but it's more common at lower levels with "double" jumps from skaters who don't get very far off the ice.

Crossing the free ankle higher up also makes it harder for the skater to achieve the rotation because the air position is less tight and therefore a bit slower, but if the skater achieves enough height in the jump and clearly completes the rotation in the air, the only real objection would be that it doesn't look as attractive.


I suppose the opposite issue would be that skaters who do cross the free ankle at the landing ankle may land with the free foot so close to the ice that it's hard to tell whether it touches down or not. I'd bet many skaters who develop a wrap do so to avoid two-footing.

So does that ever happen in roller skating, and are roller judges especially hard on two-foot landings?

Firefly123
05-07-2010, 11:40 PM
Actually, I don't think the roller judges are very hard on the 2 foot landings as long as they are "controlled," so to speak. Roller is much easier than ice in certain respects. Cheated jumps "count" so to speak as long as the cheat is "good." (That is: A clean, sharp, balanced 3 turn). A triple like this would count more than a "clean" double, but less than a "clean" triple. I believe this is to encourage the higher level skaters to try the triples instead of staying with doubles.....Since the skates are heavier (about 4-5 lbs each) the women rarely are able to land clean triples, (also, as I mentioned, many of the women have a wrap). ;) Tanja Romano (Artistic Roller Ladies' World Champion) is a notable exception. Clean triples. No wrap. :) It is also a bit harder to land jumps on roller because there is no edge to "catch" you if you lean too far to the outside. If you are on too deep of an outside edge you will simply "slip" right off of it. :yikes:

I always had a wrap around my chin. :D So 2 foot landings were never an issue (unless I actually slipped off the takeoff edge and had to save myself. Then, those 2 foot landings were not pretty....or around....) :lol:

Firefly123
05-08-2010, 12:30 AM
OK. This World Class Roller Champion is the King of all Wrappers.
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....But he is awesome!!! :swoon: 3flip-loop-loop-3loop. Nice!!! :D And just look at those heel camels. Wow!! He has a Sasha spiral too (I'm talking full split.) Ouch!!! :eek:

Strange. In his long combo (2axel-loop-3toe-loop-half loop-3sal) he doesn't wrap at all??? But he wraps the other jumps. Weird. :confused:

briancoogaert
05-08-2010, 01:45 PM
OK. This World Class Roller Champion is the King of all Wrappers.

....But he is awesome!!! :swoon: 3flip-loop-loop-3loop. Nice!!! :D And just look at those heel camels. Wow!! He has a Sasha spiral too (I'm talking full split.) Ouch!!! :eek:

Strange. In his long combo (2axel-loop-3toe-loop-half loop-3sal) he doesn't wrap at all??? But he wraps the other jumps. Weird. :confused:
Yes, very big wrap ! impressive that he is still able to rotate so fast, without any speed going into jumps !