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kwanfan1818
05-03-2010, 12:42 AM
Proposals 183 and 266
About the 1.1 factor for combos, you also have to see that they are proposing to have the half loop jump count as a Loop (1Lo) (proposal 266) so some jump sequences could be now called as jump combinations instead if the half loop is used (if I am reading it correctly). So a 3T-half loop-3S sequence (in 2009-10) could be called as a 3T-1Lo-3S combo (in 2010-11), and get the 1.1 factor instead of 0.8.

Thank you for explaining this. I found the ISU language incomprehensible.

jlai
05-03-2010, 01:40 AM
I don't like how they're talking about alternating pair spins and side-by-side spins. With the way it's going pair skating is no longer about being in sync. :(

pinky166
05-03-2010, 01:47 AM
Why haven't the team envelopes been announced yet?

overedge
05-03-2010, 01:51 AM
Why haven't the team envelopes been announced yet?

Because that's USFSA business and not ISU?

4rkidz
05-03-2010, 01:52 AM
wrong thread

key65man
05-03-2010, 02:07 AM
Proposals 183 and 266
About the 1.1 factor for combos, you also have to see that they are proposing to have the half loop jump count as a Loop (1Lo) (proposal 266) so some jump sequences could be now called as jump combinations instead if the half loop is used (if I am reading it correctly). So a 3T-half loop-3S sequence (in 2009-10) could be called as a 3T-1Lo-3S combo (in 2010-11), and get the 1.1 factor instead of 0.8.

I am not sure about this rule change for ladies. A 3-3 sequence in general is not as difficult as a 3-3 combination. And, many lady skaters can manage 3T-1L-3S (another possibility for the third jump is 3F instead of 3S) than 3-3 when properly trained. This will help to even the field a bit. But, there should be a factor that differentiate 3-3 from a quasi combination such as 3T-1L-3S like Joannie's by not awarding 10% combination bonus.

One thing about the sequence is that it is not aesthetically as pleasing, let alone the difficulty factor.

HisWeirness
05-03-2010, 02:17 AM
Could someone elaborate if the following three singles-related items are being addressed? (And excusez-moi if I'm misunderstanding any of it.)

1. Giving credit for completing a full set of jumps. - Not addressed

2. Related: A downplay of the ongoing idiocy/ obssession re: practically undetectable URs (and seemingly inconsistent application of penalties). - Not addressed

3. In a somewhat contradictory vein: More credit for those who do try the 3As and especially the quads. - only advancement on this issue in the proposals is allowing the 3A as the axel-type jump in the Senior Ladies SP and allowing two different quad jumps (one solo, one in combination) in the Senior Men SP. No change of base values.

Regarding 1, 2, and 3, remember that the ISU Council has great power (under the current rules) and can change the technical rules whenever they feel like it. So something that is not in the proposals for the 2010 Congress could show up in an ISU Communication later on without any votes from the federations.

4. I'd like even *more* credit for jump combos, especially combos involving the most difficult jumps. - Only the 1.1 base value factor for now, along with the half loop counting as a "listed" jump in combos (see my earlier post).

5. Finally, will the changes re: spins and spirals make for more individuality and creativity, getting away from certain of the ugly spin combos and the same old spiral positions? - Hopefully, especially for spirals. However, I still forsee codewhoring in pairs causing the fugly leg positions in death spirals as long as these positions are rewarded in the levels.


Thank you for explaining this. I found the ISU language incomprehensible.
I only find it mildly incomprehensible. :lol:

Dance is the most :confused: right now because they have introduced the concepts of the pattern and short dances but the ISU Communication giving the exact details/required elements for next season has not been issued yet.


One thing about the sequence is that it is not aesthetically as pleasing, let alone the difficulty factor.
I see what you are saying. That is why I included the 3T+3Lo example, showing that it has the same base value now as 3T+half loop+3S although my impression is that 3T+3Lo is a more difficult to execute combination.

I think that they should have allowed the half loop to be a "listed" jump in combos/SEQ (to allow 3T+half loop+3S to count as a combination) but they should not have given it any base value (1Lo is worth 0.5 points in base value).

key65man
05-03-2010, 02:23 AM
I am expecting the majority of the federations (especially South Korean :D) to vote against the 3axel rule. They have nothing to gain by it, it'll just serve to increase the distance between their skaters and Mao.

As far as I know, the members don't get to vote on the items proposed by the tech committee. I really need to research on this before saying anything more, but it is rare, as far as I know, that the proposals by the tech committee are repealed. I hope someone can expound on the procedure of it.

Funny thing is that the KSU (Korean Skating Union) may not go farther than putting up token resistance if Yuna decides to retire. What I have heard is that the status quo of the KSU feel conflicted about Yuna Kim. A lot of odd politics there, it seems. Also, Korean figure skating people are known to be philosophically very similar to the counterpart of the JSF. They may decide to agree on the "importance" of 3A (by discounting the original purpose of short program and treating it merely as a downsized long program). If Yuna continues to compete, I guess they will be forced to campaign for Yuna -- I sort of doubt it, however.

I actually think the U.S. may lead the resistance as I see no U.S. lady right now is capable of 3A with any meaningful consistency. Rachael may get it though under-rotated, but it is hardly a done deal.

Oh well... I guess numerous girls will spend their time on under-rotated 3A while the time can be better spent on more useful skills and artistry.

OlieRow
05-03-2010, 02:30 AM
As far as I know, the members don't get to vote on the items proposed by the tech committee. I really need to research on this before saying anything more, but it is rare, as far as I know, that the proposals by the tech committee are repealed. I hope someone can expound on the procedure of it.

Does anyone know who does vote on these proposals if it's no the members?




What I have heard is that the status quo of the KSU feel conflicted about Yuna Kim. A lot of odd politics there, it seems.

Can you expand on this?

bek
05-03-2010, 02:42 AM
I am not sure about this rule change for ladies. A 3-3 sequence in general is not as difficult as a 3-3 combination. And, many lady skaters can manage 3T-1L-3S (another possibility for the third jump is 3F instead of 3S) than 3-3 when properly trained. This will help to even the field a bit. But, there should be a factor that differentiate 3-3 from a quasi combination such as 3T-1L-3S like Joannie's by not awarding 10% combination bonus.

One thing about the sequence is that it is not aesthetically as pleasing, let alone the difficulty factor.

Well if the half loop counts as a jump, than that would mean that your 3toe half loop 3sal would count as your three jump combination. Whereas someone who can do a plan 3/3, can also get in a 3/2/2....

It meant mean getting to see some really cool sequences again. Yes a 3toe half loop 3sal isn't as difficult as a 3lutz/3toe. But when remember when Plushenko was doing his 3axel seq (3flip was it)?

Ziggy
05-03-2010, 02:52 AM
I've been to Worlds, and back when they did have qualifying rounds, you could have shot a gun into the stands with a remarkably low chance of hitting anyone unless you aimed at the judges. So much for the crowds. And the only time the TV cameras were on were when particularly prominent skaters were skating -- and in the proposals up for review, it is unlikely that any of the prominent skaters would even be skating in qualifying. Given the ISU's recent behavior (with the earlier groups skating) I wouldn't be surprised to see them close qualifying so that spectators aren't allowed in at all, or even holding it in a secondary rink.

That's exactly why I am against the QRs and for keeping the current format. :P


I concur with the importance of the ISU encouraging more pairs teams -- I just think that there are a number of more effective ways to do so: funded clinics for skaters and coaches, travel & fee support for skaters to do summer training at pairs centers, international judge visits and workshops for skaters and coaches, and travel support for pairs skaters to enter Senior Bs. Each of these efforts would provide systematic support for improved pairs results -- and I think more success than going to worlds and bombing.

The Obertsdorf pair seminar/training camp is taking part each year and it's been very successful.

If you watch the entire Pairs SP from 2010 Euros, you will find that all of the Pairs that competed were at a very reasonable level.

To think that the number of competing in the FS would be down to 12 is just :mad: :wall: :revenge:.

key65man
05-03-2010, 02:53 AM
Can you expand on this?

As far as I know, the short track people are dominant in the KSU. They like Yuna for bringing a lot of money in. But, they do not want Yuna and therefore figure skating overshadowing short track.

key65man
05-03-2010, 02:56 AM
Well if the half loop counts as a jump, than that would mean that your 3toe half loop 3sal would count as your three jump combination. Whereas someone who can do a plan 3/3, can also get in a 3/2/2....

It meant mean getting to see some really cool sequences again. Yes a 3toe half loop 3sal isn't as difficult as a 3lutz/3toe. But when remember when Plushenko was doing his 3axel seq (3flip was it)?

Yes, by counting the half loop as a single, the sequence will be counted as a combination. However, that does not mean that it is a true combination. I call it quasi-combo. Hence, I feel it does not warrant the 10% bonus.

Yeah, I think Plushy did it with 3F. I have no objection to encouraging the sequence. I just don't find it fair that it is rewarded as a true combination.

Ziggy
05-03-2010, 02:58 AM
I don't like how they're talking about alternating pair spins and side-by-side spins. With the way it's going pair skating is no longer about being in sync. :(

Yes. I don't see the reason to reduce the number of the elements even further and I want the pair skaters to be able to spin as well as jump.


I think that they should have allowed the half loop to be a "listed" jump in combos/SEQ (to allow 3T+half loop+3S to count as a combination) but they should not have given it any base value (1Lo is worth 0.5 points in base value).

I totally agree. 0.5 might not seem like much but then it gets added to the total and increased by 10%. It definitely should have no value, if a waltz jump has no value either.


I have no objection to encouraging the sequence. I just don't find it fair that it is rewarded as a true combination.

But it is a true combination. Three jumps directly following each other without any breaks, extra steps, etc.

bek
05-03-2010, 03:04 AM
But it is a true combination. Three jumps directly following each other without any breaks, extra steps, etc.

Exactly and while a 3toe half 3loop might not be as hard as a 3lutz/3toe. A 3axel half loop 3flip more than likely IS. I mean that was a ridiculous thing that Plushenko was doing. If we could encourage things like that, I'd be happy.

And here's a question would this also limit the 3toe seq double axel things to just one? Or are there different ways besides a half loop to achieve those things.