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umronnie
05-02-2010, 12:40 PM
I haven't had time to read the entire document, so thatk you all for the summaries. I might have missed some proposals, so can you please enlighten me:

1) It's great that finally jump combos are being recognised as more difficult than doing the jumps separately (you only now got that, ISU? wow). Has there been any suggestion to discard the 0.8 factor for jump sequences, on the basis that they ae at least as difficult as doing the jumps separately?

2) It's nice that ladies will be allowed a 3A in the SP and that men (Ok, not men, just Reynolds) are allowed 2 quads in the SP, but has there been any more talk about raising the base values of 3As and quads?

3) Any changes to the downgrade rules?

4) I find it weird that they are dropping a step/spiral sequence from the SP. The SP has 3 jump elements with 4 jumps total, 3 spins and (had) 2 steps/spiral sequences. Dropping one of te latter skews the program in favore of the jump elements. I am one of those who care about jumps and want to see more emphasis put on the harder jumps, but I do not like to see the other elemnts dropped altogether. If they want to remove one SP element, drop the jump out of footwork, the Axle or one of the spins (which all look the same, anyway). I agree that most ladies spirals look the same these days (IOW ugly), but that is not reason enough to drop them.

Ziggy
05-02-2010, 02:02 PM
Bin Yao could have learned just as much by going to a competition and watching every practice and competition segment. Competing in one qualifying round doesn't magically gift people with a certain level of knowledge. If he needed to know that he was terrible, I'm sure that he could have found himself judges who would have been happy to explain all of the places where he fell short.

I don't need to compete in a skating competition to know that my skills aren't up to international competitive levels.

It's absolutely ridiculous to assume that watching a competition is the same as taking part in it. It's a completely different experience.

Skaters need competition experience. Competing at Ondrej Nepela Memorial is something completely, entirely different to competing at ISU Championships.

Second Step Sequence not Called in FS

That is a very very bad move.

The fact both step sequences had levels meant the guys were doing something akin to figures. Now we're going to be back to one of the step sequences being three turns>toe-steps>hops>three-turns again. :wall:

I'm going to try to put the ISU Championships cuts rules together in one place and am gonna to start another action thread once I am ready.

DORISPULASKI
05-02-2010, 02:30 PM
20. USA speed: 21 day advanced notice of any rule changes for competitors.

With all these changes, if this passes, chances are they can't get the paperwork done for the official version before the JGP starts. A good thing, particularly when it comes to the pattern dance/short dance abortion combo.

So of course:


Council NOT in favor

But is 21 days shorter or longer than current rules? Are there any time limits?

~tapdancer~
05-02-2010, 02:53 PM
This may be a dumb question but in regard to the Short Dance, is the required sequence (i.e., Golden Waltz for this season) going to change from year to year? I guess it should, if the purpose of it is to replace the compulsory dance. Same with the Pattern Dance the lower level skaters will have to do, that will change from year to year, right?

Also, it was said that "Rhumba D'Amour" was removed from the list...that was the CD waiting to be approved created by T&D, wasn't it? It was never approved, afaik. Wonder if it will ever be now.

DORISPULASKI
05-02-2010, 03:31 PM
In some ways, Rhumba d'Amour is perfect for the new rules because it was something like 1.5 patterns, AFAIR? If they wanted to use it, just take the .5 pattern and off you go.

Tammi
05-02-2010, 04:27 PM
With all these changes, if this passes, chances are they can't get the paperwork done for the official version before the JGP starts. A good thing, particularly when it comes to the pattern dance/short dance abortion combo.

So of course:



But is 21 days shorter or longer than current rules? Are there any time limits?#20 is a speed skating proposal, not figure skating.

bookworm
05-02-2010, 05:14 PM
You're not really a bookworm, are you then? :P

I read fiction, not legalese!

kwanfan1818
05-02-2010, 05:19 PM
So after this a combination gets a 1.1 bonus, but a sequence still gets a 20% penalty :confused:

If nothing else, sequences add to more interesting programs, and because many first jumps in combination lack flow out and the second (or second and third) jump(s) lack speed and flow and look tacked on, sequences very often look more powerful and more evenly performed. (But get no respect.)

BigB08822
05-02-2010, 05:42 PM
I do not see how this 1.1 factoring of combinations is going to help Lepisto. As if she really plans on doubling her way to another World medal. The factoring of 1.1 is the same for all combinations so it does help those with the more difficult combinations because it will add more. If a jump is combo is worth 6 points total (so a really easy combination) then the factoring makes it worth 6.6 points. Someone doing a more difficult combination, say worth 10 points will now receive 11 points. They get .4 points extra from the same factoring method. I don't see how it would be worth more to do the super easy combo and hope for 2.5 GOE than to go for the more difficult combo and end up with 1 GOE. As long as you complete the combos, the factoring will benefit the harder jumps. Besides, Lepisto wont ever get close to a World podium again with that jump content.

elfenblüte
05-02-2010, 05:51 PM
I think all new proposals are only for the big federations like USA, Canada, Japan and Russia, all smaller federations will be damaged with the new rules!

The worst proposal for me is the minimum score!

I very much hope that this proposal will be voted down from all smaller federations at the congress in june!

IceIceBaby
05-02-2010, 05:53 PM
2) It's nice that ladies will be allowed a 3A in the SP and that men (Ok, not men, just Reynolds) are allowed 2 quads in the SP, but has there been any more talk about raising the base values of 3As and quads?


I would like to know too, will the base values change?

barbk
05-02-2010, 06:28 PM
That might be true, but he credits that experience as having a huge impact on his drive to create the Chinese pairs dynasty.

From my rowing experience, I know I got far more out of racing a boat that won back-to-back NCAA Championships than I did going to watch NCAAs. It just doesn't compare to having them in the lane right next to you. I can see where being on the same ice as some of the World's best teams and being able to make direct comparisons could be a great learning tool. Not to mention what it would do to motivate younger skaters.

Using that argument, why not let every country send an additional team -- or two? Surely they'd all benefit from the experience of skating with magnificent teams. In fact, why have any requirements at all?

Bin Yao may well have been inspired by his miserable outing at Worlds. But if he was as mentally strong as he seems to be, he could have been just as inspired by coming in last at one of the Senior B's -- and at least at a Senior B he'd have a better chance of getting to skate his LP.

I'd probably be a better driver if I had a chance to drive a fancy sports car. But who's to say that doing so is the only -- or even the best -- way of becoming a better driver?

OlieRow
05-02-2010, 08:16 PM
Using that argument, why not let every country send an additional team -- or two? Surely they'd all benefit from the experience of skating with magnificent teams. In fact, why have any requirements at all?

I'm not saying that the World Championships should be like YMCA sports or something where everyone plays. At that level of competition, anyone that wants to show up shouldn't be allowed to enter. However, given that it is the World Championships, every ISU member should (IMO) be allowed to send one entry. If you need a QR to cut down the entries after they're there, so be it. I just don't think the smaller countries will be able to develop the sport if their athletes aren't allowed the benefits of getting out and competing at a high level. Sure, they could do it at a Senior B, but I don't think the experience is the same as if it's Worlds.

In the situation I'm using for comparison, we battled a team that was typically in the top 5 nationally for our conference title. It took 9 years of losing before we FINALLY broke through and won, but it would've never happened without facing them 2-3 times every season and traveling all over challenging ourselves against other fast teams.

barbk
05-02-2010, 08:44 PM
But Bin Yao WAS at the level of a club sport -- you could probably find Novice pairs who skate better than he and his partner did. I don't doubt that he was inspired by skating at the World Championships. But that's no reason why skaters like that should compete there rather than at Senior B's or 4CC. After all, it isn't as if the only skaters at Senior Bs are low scoring skaters.

There's a minimum level of competency that a skater ought to have before being allowed to compete at the World Championship level, and I'm glad that the ISU is finally considering that. The same is true at the Olympics -- you have to have a qualifying score in swimming to be eligible, and while there's a wide range of swimmers in each event, you don't see swimmers there who look ridiculously out of place.

Rock2
05-02-2010, 08:55 PM
I'm not saying that the World Championships should be like YMCA sports or something where everyone plays.
........
I just don't think the smaller countries will be able to develop the sport if their athletes aren't allowed the benefits of getting out and competing at a high level.

I hear ya but...

If a skater can't score 30 points in a SP before an ISU championship and without the pressure of the exposure, coming to an ISU champ to score even less is not going to be the magic formula to make them better. Let's be real. The problems run deeper than not having the chance to skate before ten thousand people.

I think what the ISU is trying to say that you'll get the chance...IF the member nation is serious enough to get their skaters exposure to good level coaching and the skaters put the effort in. In other words, you show us you're doing all you can and we'll let you in.

Establishing a base level of competency is in my mind honoring the sport. The base isn't that high by any means and represents a level that any skater should be able to achieve if they have any kind of talent.

Awesome rule.