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icedance21
05-28-2010, 12:55 PM
It absolutely is political.

Now that Asada lost to Kim, it really is no surprise that they are suddenly celebrating difficulty, penalising cheated jumps less, downplaying quality and totally ignoring calls for rewarding diversity in jumping. It basically is signalling Kim to retire and annointing Asada.
I definitely agree with you. It's very obvious and :rofl: what they're doing. Perhaps they should have made these rule changes prior to the 2009 worlds so that Mao-san could have won the Olympic and 2009 world golds, or made these new rules retroactive to the 2010 Olympics & 2009 worlds. :duh: :P Junko Hiramatsu, you did well. :P

MCC
05-28-2010, 01:28 PM
I definitely agree with you. It's very obvious and :rofl: what they're doing. Perhaps they should have made these rule changes prior to the 2009 worlds so that Mao-san could have won the Olympic and 2009 world golds, or made these new rules retroactive to the 2010 Olympics & 2009 worlds. :duh: :P Junko Hiramatsu, you did well. :P

It's just amazing the endless and blind love to Asada of JSF. I really wonder what's next step of JSF if Asada can't defeat Yuna under this absurd rule change. Anyway Asada must be the happiest skater in the world.

miki88
05-28-2010, 01:36 PM
:confused:

There really isn't any benefit to Kim retiring and 'annointing' Asada - competition between the two is preferable.

And if there was a general feeling that Kim should retire, she wouldn't have gotten so many points at the WC. It really verged on the ridiculous and if the scoring changes are intended to remedy that, I totally agree with them.

But, if Kim does stay in (which it appears she will) I don't think she'll suddenly start losing to Asada even when she skates well. Her PCS will remain huge and Asada will still have to work very hard to rival her.

I agree. I think they should really do something about the PCS. It shouldn't just be a placement holder.

officialcoach
05-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Can anyone out there imagine how many underrotated jumps we will see this year at Regionals, Sectionals? This is a move away from the pursuit of excellence and an acceptance of mediocrity. I Will miss the days when jumps were clean. There is NO incentive for doing a simpler clean jump. So this system which is supposed to develop a whole skater is now back to spin in the air or on the ground and be rewarded.
I for one think:duh: this SUCKS!!! :duh::duh:

gkelly
05-28-2010, 02:23 PM
As dreadful as Yamaguchi was with the 3sal, at least she always attempted it.


She did it because she had to under the 6.0. The new system doesn't reward doing all 5 triples, so there's no incentive to always attempt them.

The 6.0 system had no official reward for doing all 5 (or 6) triples either. It was up to individual judges whether they thought that was important or not.

As of 1992 you could pretty much count on your fingers the number of ladies who had ever done 5 different triples in the same program. Four was still impressive at that time, especially the one that was omitted was one of the easier ones.

Granted, there were two women at the time who were capable of doing 6 different triples. And one who could do 5 plus attempt a quad. So to contend for the top titles Yamaguchi needed to include as much jump content as she could muster and then outperform them in other ways. But the triple-triple, another nice double axel, and more artistic content would be more valuable to her than a failed triple salchow.

galaxy
05-28-2010, 02:30 PM
I think it is very clear the new proposals are all geared to further reward Asada's strengths, limit the reward on Kim's strengths, and ignore Asada's weaknesses.




The most interesting is :That's exactly the same thing I thought about the old rules and scoring systems over the years between Torino and Vancouver.:eek:
You really took the words out of my mouth!!:eek:



However, I need to replace some words with others.

I think it is very clear the old/ current rules/systems and trend of judgements have been all geared to further reward Kim's strengths, limit the reward on everyone else's strengths, and ignore Kim's weaknesses.



Indeed everyone has their own views and opinions.

CaptCrunch
05-28-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm really happy they are changing the whole downgrading of jumps business. The way its been under CoP has been ridiculous. Look at what CoP did to Yukari Nakano's wonderful attempt at a 3A in her LP in Gothenburg. It reduced it to a bad double which is nuts. Her 3A attempt got less pts then Caroline Kostner's crummy 2A that she did at the end of her LP in that same competition.

There are so many problems with CoP its not even funny.

miki88
05-28-2010, 02:32 PM
The 6.0 system had no official reward for doing all 5 (or 6) triples either. It was up to individual judges whether they thought that was important or not.

As of 1992 you could pretty much count on your fingers the number of ladies who had ever done 5 different triples in the same program. Four was still impressive at that time, especially the one that was omitted was one of the easier ones.

Granted, there were two women at the time who were capable of doing 6 different triples. And one who could do 5 plus attempt a quad. So to contend for the top titles Yamaguchi needed to include as much jump content as she could muster and then outperform them in other ways. But the triple-triple, another nice double axel, and more artistic content would be more valuable to her than a failed triple salchow.

Still, even if it weren't official, I feel back then many of the judges rewarded skaters for attempting all five triples. We didn't see many top skaters leaving out jumps they were uncomfortable with in those days. Also, it's probably because the UR/edge issues were overlooked, so they can get away with less than perfect jumps as long as they are landed. I am also glad they have finally done something about this downgrade business. I've always felt that programs under the 6.0 felt much freer than under CoP and I think it's probably due to the fact that skaters back then did not have to worry so much about things such as UR. You see how strict UR calls have made an otherwise wonderful skater such as Mirai become so nervous at times and consequently messes up her performances.

RumbleFish
05-28-2010, 02:33 PM
It's just amazing the endless and blind love to Asada of JSF. I really wonder what's next step of JSF if Asada can't defeat Yuna under this absurd rule change. Anyway Asada must be the happiest skater in the world.

JSF's definition of a "happy skater" seems quite different from that of Brian Orser and David Wilson. :bribe:

gkelly
05-28-2010, 02:49 PM
Still, even if it weren't official, I feel back then many of the judges rewarded skaters for attempting all five triples.

"Those days" meaning 1991 and 92? Or are you conflating the whole post-figures/pre-IJS era 1991-2004, during most of which Yamaguchi did not compete?

key65man
05-28-2010, 04:09 PM
The cause and effect in your view seems way off.



I've always felt that programs under the 6.0 felt much freer than under CoP and I think it's probably due to the fact that skaters back then did not have to worry so much about things such as UR. You see how strict UR calls have made an otherwise wonderful skater such as Mirai become so nervous at times and consequently messes up her performances.

The UR issue has little to do with one system "freer" than another. Rather, the biggest factor is how the system is structured. In other words, if we let go of many required elements, then programs will be freer. The UR issue has little implication upon it.


You see how strict UR calls have made an otherwise wonderful skater such as Mirai become so nervous at times and consequently messes up her performances.

The UR occurs when a skater does not fully rotate in the mid-air given the margin of error, 90 degree or 1/4 turn. It means that the skater needs a longer flight time (in other words, the jump needs to be bigger) to remedy the UR. Skaters usually are reluctant to do so because with everything equal, bigger jumps are harder to control and therefore affect landing consistency.

A skater needs to adjust the mechanics of jump to generate more power and longer flight time. And, practice harder to improve landing consistency while doing so. Then, the skater won't have to be nervous about UR. Therefore, if Mirai's nervous about UR, then she needs to make her jump bigger such that she doesn't have to worry about under-rotating it. But, I doubt that is the real issue with Mirai.

Almost everyone gets nervous in competition, especially when burdened with high expectation. When extremely nervous like that, skaters tend to be cautious and tentative with jumps, which may be how tension and nerve contribute to UR. I believe this is more likely what is happening to Mirai. If so, this has nothing to do with how UR is enforced and is an issue about her nerve burdened with high expectation.

key65man
05-28-2010, 04:27 PM
It's just amazing the endless and blind love to Asada of JSF. I really wonder what's next step of JSF if Asada can't defeat Yuna under this absurd rule change. Anyway Asada must be the happiest skater in the world.

The JSF has been selling figure skating with Mao Asada in Japan. It is no different from selling golf with Tiger Woods. It is smart marketing in a way.

But, it is getting harder to go on with the strategy unless Mao becomes dominant in competitions. Considering what has been happening to figure skating in the U.S. since the ladies started struggling -- there are other factors for the decline -- the current situation perhaps is not good for the JSF. And, there is no option better than Mao at this moment. So, they are doing a smart thing. It is more or less business for the JSF. Not necessarily about a cult of personality.

miki88
05-28-2010, 04:59 PM
The cause and effect in your view seems way off.




The UR issue has little to do with one system "freer" than another. Rather, the biggest factor is how the system is structured. In other words, if we let go of many required elements, then programs will be freer. The UR issue has little implication upon it.



The UR occurs when a skater does not fully rotate in the mid-air given the margin of error, 90 degree or 1/4 turn. It means that the skater needs a longer flight time (in other words, the jump needs to be bigger) to remedy the UR. Skaters usually are reluctant to do so because with everything equal, bigger jumps are harder to control and therefore affect landing consistency.

A skater needs to adjust the mechanics of jump to generate more power and longer flight time. And, practice harder to improve landing consistency while doing so. Then, the skater won't have to be nervous about UR. Therefore, if Mirai's nervous about UR, then she needs to make her jump bigger such that she doesn't have to worry about under-rotating it. But, I doubt that is the real issue with Mirai.

Almost everyone gets nervous in competition, especially when burdened with high expectation. When extremely nervous like that, skaters tend to be cautious and tentative with jumps, which may be how tension and nerve contribute to UR. I believe this is more likely what is happening to Mirai. If so, this has nothing to do with how UR is enforced and is an issue about her nerve burdened with high expectation.

Well, you have your views and I have mine. :) I just know before the strict UR calling was enforced, skaters would skate with less caution. Well, it's reasonable don't you think? They only had to worry about landing the jump. Now they have to worry about landing and fully rotating the jump. It adds more pressure. More required elements does have something to do with it too, but it didn't really affect skaters during early CoP period, where downgrades and edge calls were more lenient. Not only does these rules affect a skater's consistency but it also affects their content. For example, Shizuka is a skater who would have been dinged badly under the current rules.

Ziggy
05-28-2010, 06:10 PM
It absolutely is political.

Now that Asada lost to Kim, it really is no surprise that they are suddenly celebrating difficulty, penalising cheated jumps less, downplaying quality and totally ignoring calls for rewarding diversity in jumping. It basically is signalling Kim to retire and annointing Asada.

:respec:


I'm really happy they are changing the whole downgrading of jumps business. The way its been under CoP has been ridiculous. Look at what CoP did to Yukari Nakano's wonderful attempt at a 3A in her LP in Gothenburg. It reduced it to a bad double which is nuts. Her 3A attempt got less pts then Caroline Kostner's crummy 2A that she did at the end of her LP in that same competition.

There are so many problems with CoP its not even funny.

How exactly is penalising cheating ridiculous?

You don't think that clean elements should be rewarded over the ones which are flawed?

key65man
05-28-2010, 06:11 PM
Well, you have your views and I have mine. :) I just know before the strict UR calling was enforced, skaters would skate with less caution. Well, it's reasonable don't you think? They only had to worry about landing the jump. Now they have to worry about landing and fully rotating the jump. It adds more pressure. More required elements does have something to do with it too, but it didn't really affect skaters during early CoP period, where downgrades and edge calls were more lenient. Not only does these rules affect a skater's consistency but it also affects their content. For example, Shizuka is a skater who would have been dinged badly under the current rules.


With everything being equal, fully rotated jumps are bigger and harder to control. Fully rotated jumps require more athleticism and better techniques. UR'd jumps should not deserve as much credit.

Of course, the requirement of full rotation adds additional difficulties to jumps. However, a skater has an option of doing a jump accordingly. In principle, skaters are to adjust their techniques instead of to remove or excessively modify good rules to suit their short-comings.

They can skate with less caution when they improve their techniques. If skating with less caution is the goal regardless of how you get there, I can propose that we remove all the elements that are generally perceived difficult, which would let skaters with far less caution.

I thought the penalty for UR was a bit too harsh before. I was hoping for a change such that honest mistakes -- nobody is immune to UR -- are rewarded more properly while avoiding to encourage skaters to deliberately exploit it. The current proposal of UR, in my opinion, is making it open to exploitation when combined with other proposals, and I certainly do not agree with them.