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icedance21
05-27-2010, 05:43 PM
I don't think the French federation proposal will pass the way it's written. I'm not sure there will be a lot of support to eliminate Europeans during the Olympics year. 4CC, yes, because it's poorly attended during the Olympics year, but not Europeans, with its prestige and long history. It's not all about the Olympics, and not every skater can attend the Olympics. Anyways, I like the concept of the after-Olympics worlds, personally.

mia joy
05-27-2010, 06:12 PM
I love the Olympic seasons as they are too. I know it might be a lot for skaters to bare, but I'm truly in love with Europeans, which have their own special atmosphere,kind of more intimate than at Worlds, where you get to see some less known skaters or some also amazing skaters, who just don't always get to compete at Olys or Worlds (take Alban Preaubert or Kris Berntsson for example). I also love post-Olympic Worlds for the same reason everybody's already named. And also, it makes the Olympic season even more special with three huge events and not two as usual. I love it that after Olys I can tell myself : hey, don't worry it's over, there's still Worlds in a month ;)

about rewarding the best or most difficult elements: OMG for me it's like another chance for political dirty games. A favourite has done a little worse? no problem! we'll give them the points they deserved and then if it's not enough to win, we'll say they've had the best element of the night. Problem solved, favourite wins, the one who's been better got their proper notes, everbody is happy...? ehm, not really.

bek
05-27-2010, 06:16 PM
about rewarding the best or most difficult elements: OMG for me it's like another chance for political dirty games. A favourite has done a little worse? no problem! we'll give them the points they deserved and then if it's not enough to win, we'll say they've had the best element of the night. Problem solved, favourite wins, the one who's been better got their proper notes, everbody is happy...? ehm, not really.

It doesn't HAVE to be political. All they have to do is assign criteria for what qualifies for the bonus. So the skaters know a head of time.

HisWeirness
05-27-2010, 07:21 PM
My comment about politiks regarding the bonus is more about what elements the ISU Technical Committee decides at the start of the season should get the bonus - ex. so for Ladies, is it a 3Lz+3T/3F+3T or the 3A that gets the bonus or both? Which element(s) are selected for the bonus could be seen as favoring one skater/federation over the other...

I think the bonus could be a good thing if it is handled well (selecting 2-3 "difficult" elements before the season begins in a way that does not seem to favor certain skaters). Look at the Russian ladies. Most of their top skaters compete a 3-3, even if it is just a 3T+3T, because they get rewarded with a bonus at domestic competitions / Russian Nationals for having a triple-triple combination.

Regarding Worlds in an Olympic year, I'm personally fine with the way things are/have been, and I enjoy the post-Oly Worlds as a taste of what is to come in the new quad. There is an issue with 4CC participation, but there is even an issue with 4CC participation in non-Olympic years. 2009 4CC in Vancouver was the exception because most of the top skaters wanted competition experience on Olympic ice.

mia joy
05-27-2010, 10:13 PM
It doesn't HAVE to be political. All they have to do is assign criteria for what qualifies for the bonus. So the skaters know a head of time.


nah, I don't know. I just kinda don't believe in ISU objectiveness or fair judging anymore, not after all I've seen during 10 years of watching skating. I'm pretty sure sooner or later it would become political anyway. I mean, rewarding difficult and risky elements is one thing (I'm totally cool with that, you're talking to a quad lover, after all :rolleyes:), but naming one specific thing "the best of the night" is something different. What if two or more skaters do the exact same element? are they all rewarded extra points? besides, how is it even possible to compare jumps with steps, spirals or spins? I really think this idea is pretty crazy and would do more harm than good.

RunnersHigh
05-27-2010, 11:39 PM
It doesn't HAVE to be political. All they have to do is assign criteria for what qualifies for the bonus. So the skaters know a head of time.

ITA, in theory. But the problem is how to apply in reality.

Pratfall
05-28-2010, 03:10 AM
:rolleyes: It doesn't have to be political, but it could be..so at some point or other , it probably will be..if it's adopted.

This just smacks of a way to get around the rules. Oh, some special people are not happy with the rules? We can't change the rules to suit specific skaters, we'll just have to create a new loophole.

Even if the bonus was never abused ( good luck !) it just creates another opportunity for potential scandal.

barbk
05-28-2010, 04:15 AM
Now if they had a credit to give every skater who did all the standard triples (toe, loop, flip, lutz) in the ladies' competition, or all the standard triples (including the axel) in the mens', I'd go for that.

Marco
05-28-2010, 05:13 AM
It absolutely is political.

Now that Asada lost to Kim, it really is no surprise that they are suddenly celebrating difficulty, penalising cheated jumps less, downplaying quality and totally ignoring calls for rewarding diversity in jumping. It basically is signalling Kim to retire and annointing Asada.

RunnersHigh
05-28-2010, 06:32 AM
It absolutely is political.

Now that Asada lost to Kim, it really is no surprise that they are suddenly celebrating difficulty, penalising cheated jumps less, downplaying quality and totally ignoring calls for rewarding diversity in jumping. It basically is signalling Kim to retire and annointing Asada.

:respec:
Hope the proposal dies on the vine.

Japanfan
05-28-2010, 07:49 AM
Now that Asada lost to Kim, it really is no surprise that they are suddenly celebrating difficulty, penalising cheated jumps less, downplaying quality and totally ignoring calls for rewarding diversity in jumping. It basically is signalling Kim to retire and annointing Asada.

:confused:

There really isn't any benefit to Kim retiring and 'annointing' Asada - competition between the two is preferable.

And if there was a general feeling that Kim should retire, she wouldn't have gotten so many points at the WC. It really verged on the ridiculous and if the scoring changes are intended to remedy that, I totally agree with them.

But, if Kim does stay in (which it appears she will) I don't think she'll suddenly start losing to Asada even when she skates well. Her PCS will remain huge and Asada will still have to work very hard to rival her.

caseyedwards
05-28-2010, 09:29 AM
I feel that if you gave a bonus for doing all the triples in mens you would really deincentivize doing learning the quad jump. If a male skater is good enough to do every kind of triple than that skater should be encouraged to do quads.

Marco
05-28-2010, 11:41 AM
I feel that if you gave a bonus for doing all the triples in mens you would really deincentivize doing learning the quad jump. If a male skater is good enough to do every kind of triple than that skater should be encouraged to do quads.

Yeah except Plushenko did a 4toe but not a 3flip. Asada did 3axels but no 3sal or 3lutz.

I really don't see the mastery of technique there. As dreadful as Yamaguchi was with the 3sal, at least she always attempted it.

Marco
05-28-2010, 11:47 AM
But, if Kim does stay in (which it appears she will) I don't think she'll suddenly start losing to Asada even when she skates well. Her PCS will remain huge and Asada will still have to work very hard to rival her.

I think it is very clear the new proposals are all geared to further reward Asada's strengths, limit the reward on Kim's strengths, and ignore Asada's weaknesses.

It's almost like Asada didn't have the momentum going into and through last season and so the Japanese Federation would rather position Asada for an post-Vancouver era of domination with the ultimate goal of Sochi. Ofcourse it didn't help that Asada's skating went all sorts of wrong last season that no amount of politiking could have pulled off the gold for her. The Japanese Federation probably also didn't realise until too late that the changes in 2008 and 2009 were so detrimental to Asada (or that Kim suddenly improved so much once her injury was gone).

miki88
05-28-2010, 12:54 PM
Yeah except Plushenko did a 4toe but not a 3flip. Asada did 3axels but no 3sal or 3lutz.

I really don't see the mastery of technique there. As dreadful as Yamaguchi was with the 3sal, at least she always attempted it.

She did it because she had to under the 6.0. The new system doesn't reward doing all 5 triples, so there's no incentive to always attempt them.